Funny Book Forensics 441 Fantastic Five

[00:00:04] Speaker A: I hit record. And as soon as I hit record, Greg says, oh, no. And starts looking around his office. I know if you're on the non video version, which you probably should be because then you have to look at us. [00:00:16] Speaker B: Why would they do that? [00:00:18] Speaker A: You will see Greg wandering around the office. We just hit record because we were panning for podcast gold and just leaving it off the podcast. [00:00:26] Speaker B: Just. Oh, I know. It was just like all this conversation, like almost 15 minutes of talk that could have been podcast and you'll never know it because there's no way we could repeat it. [00:00:37] Speaker A: Right. Like, what if Booster Gold 26 existed? [00:00:41] Speaker B: What if we actually read it but [00:00:46] Speaker A: it doesn't exist, so we can't. [00:00:48] Speaker B: What if we wrote it? [00:00:50] Speaker A: What if we wrote it? I think they already did that. [00:00:52] Speaker B: Kind of. [00:00:53] Speaker A: Okay, what if I read those Action comics issues, the latest two that have Booster Gold in them and then we reviewed those. [00:01:03] Speaker B: Okay. What if Dan reads the Millennium books? [00:01:08] Speaker A: No, no, no, no. Did you not endure the last two issues of Booster Gold? [00:01:17] Speaker B: I did, but I mean, I just [00:01:19] Speaker A: find that just means you'd get a whole nother 8 issue series and then how many was it? 30 crossovers. [00:01:26] Speaker B: So we'd have to read all those as well. [00:01:29] Speaker A: Yeah. So, yeah. That'll lead us into 2028. Yeah, I don't think I could handle more Millennium. [00:01:41] Speaker B: Okay. [00:01:43] Speaker A: Right now, I think maybe. I mean, I'm looking up at the. I'm looking up at some of the comics I haven't read that are newer. Yeah, I have the whole whole. I don't know if it's good or not. It's written by Tom King. I have the whole Rorschach Tom King series up there. I haven't even cracked open. [00:02:01] Speaker B: You're like, it might be good. I don't know. [00:02:04] Speaker A: I recently read. Recently read the magazine size Last Days of Lex Luthor by Mark Wade, which was fantastic. [00:02:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:02:14] Speaker A: I. You've got the. The current Supergirl series is. Is great. It plays into a lot of nostalgia while at the same time appealing to new readers. It's really fun. [00:02:28] Speaker B: Cool. [00:02:29] Speaker A: There's a lot of good new comics that we don't even get into because we spent 27. Because two Superman titles in addition episodes [00:02:43] Speaker B: on Booster Gold and they were days spent. Well, they were. They were episodes talked about with so much heartfelt goodness and. And camaraderie to the. The Booster Gold story. And the listeners enjoyed it so much. [00:03:04] Speaker A: I don't know that our numbers reflect that. [00:03:07] Speaker B: I. You know what, though? When you have people coming in and Talking to you on a, on a time to time basis, explaining their time for the pot. [00:03:16] Speaker A: Every day somebody comes to the store and talks about how much they love the. [00:03:20] Speaker B: That's why I said, I didn't say, I didn't say every day. I said from time to time, Dan, people come by or they send a message saying how much they love the podcast and how much they love the content, how much they love to hear us talk about Booster Gold and they're wondering why are we not just doing a booster cast. [00:03:39] Speaker A: I had a listener, a new listener say they pretty much had no idea what we were talking about. [00:03:47] Speaker B: That too. Yeah, that's true. [00:03:49] Speaker A: Which is, I think is the sheer nature of this podcast. We, we generally don't know what we're talking about and so that it shows out. In fact, though I'm learned. I've learned some things. [00:03:59] Speaker B: You did learn some things. [00:04:01] Speaker A: Tell me, did learn some things. Did you know that if I wanted to grow the listenership of this podcast, I should be telling people to leave a review of the podcast? [00:04:15] Speaker B: Okay. [00:04:16] Speaker A: On like Apple. Ah. Or Google. [00:04:21] Speaker B: Okay. [00:04:22] Speaker A: Or YouTube. [00:04:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:23] Speaker A: Music. [00:04:24] Speaker B: Because. [00:04:24] Speaker A: Or wherever. Wherever you listen to your podcast. What is. And. Or a comment. Yeah. And. Well, if you leave a review where you could leave and this is a trick I've learned. See, I've learned this. If you leave up to a five star review, Basically what we're saying is we want a five star review. But you don't say that because that's rude. [00:04:49] Speaker B: I would say give us a five star review and just tell us whatever you hate about us. [00:04:54] Speaker A: You say, yeah, leave up to a five star review. Yes. If you want your review to get noticed. If in the true nature of this podcast, if you want to leave everyone confused, leave a five star review and talk about all the terrible things you hate about this podcast. [00:05:08] Speaker B: It'll probably get read on the podcast. [00:05:10] Speaker A: Confused. [00:05:11] Speaker B: Yeah, it would. [00:05:12] Speaker A: I would read that on the podcast. If in the, in the. In the true tradition of TM Maple and TV Pouncey. [00:05:22] Speaker B: Yes. [00:05:22] Speaker A: Why don't you just leave comments over and over again over every episode about everything you like and dislike about the [00:05:28] Speaker B: podcast that you got. [00:05:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:30] Speaker B: If you do, if you pull, if you pull a Maple or Pouncy with us and just be a continual voice in the, in our chatter out there in podcast land, talking on all those different forums and putting your five star review and your. And your things, your kind words and sometimes inspirational direction for, for a different choice of. Of thing to cover. Please do so because I'm pretty Sure. Dan and I will. One, will, Will. Will read it wholeheartedly. Most likely also read it on the show. And two, we'll probably take those kind, kind comments and suggestions to heart. I know I will. [00:06:19] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:20] Speaker B: Dan, he's a different kind of. [00:06:21] Speaker A: But the. I also learned. I've learned a couple of other things. [00:06:24] Speaker B: Oh yeah, what's that? [00:06:26] Speaker A: That on YouTube, that we need people to subscribe. [00:06:30] Speaker B: Ah, like and subscribe. [00:06:33] Speaker A: Yeah. So we need that. [00:06:34] Speaker B: Okay. [00:06:35] Speaker A: And then we need like 500 hours of listens. I. I'm not. [00:06:40] Speaker B: I thought you're gonna say $500 worth of worth. [00:06:45] Speaker A: I do like 500. I also learned that if we ever want to grow the podcast, we have to like, make a Patreon, but I don't know if I'm ready for that yet. [00:06:54] Speaker B: Oh, we should. We should do that. And then we can give them special. [00:06:59] Speaker A: Well, I think that the trouble with making a Patreon is what I would say for Patreon is you can have the podcast as soon as I release it instead of waiting until it comes up on Sundays. Right. But then if I did that, I would actually have to edit them well ahead of time. [00:07:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:19] Speaker A: Like, there's no benefit to somebody getting it an hour before 3 o' clock on Sunday. [00:07:25] Speaker B: But they could also get. They could get, I would call them our fun asides, in which maybe you and I release specific things each month just for our listeners that are on Patreon that, that they could get that we wouldn't release anywhere else that they're only going to find there. [00:07:45] Speaker A: That is possible. I have to think about that. If there was something that also involves extra editing, though. [00:07:51] Speaker B: Oh, I know it's. Oh, but it means that. That there is some funds coming in for fun going out. Sure. See. [00:08:06] Speaker A: Well, big question, actually, I was going to ask you before the podcast. Okay. [00:08:10] Speaker B: But you're asking me now. [00:08:12] Speaker A: I will ask you now in front of the whole audience. So, summer Con this year. [00:08:18] Speaker B: Yes. [00:08:19] Speaker A: I assume we're going to attempt to go on Friday again. [00:08:22] Speaker B: We're going to try. Suppose, but we'll see. [00:08:26] Speaker A: We will making plans. So we will be making plan. I have not purchased tickets yet. I don't even know if they're available. [00:08:32] Speaker B: Okay. [00:08:33] Speaker A: We will be making plans. Greg will be. It's June 19th. Okay. I am out of town the week before that. [00:08:42] Speaker B: Oh, okay. Well, I guess we're not going to. [00:08:44] Speaker A: I. I'm going to Washington D.C. to see the Mariners play the Nationals on the 12th and 13th. Look at you and. And visit it. Some old Friends. Not friends of the podcast, though. [00:08:58] Speaker B: Not friends of the show. [00:08:59] Speaker A: I thought. For some reason, I thought Summer Con was in July, like normal or whenever it's been in the past. I don't know. [00:09:06] Speaker B: Oh, they. They're changing this thing around. It's like. Like a damn spinning thing. [00:09:13] Speaker A: You know what also explains. I was like, wow, they're getting the comic book artists out really early this year. Like, plenty of time to promote and stuff. And I was like, wait, oh, okay, that explains why that's happening now. Okay. [00:09:25] Speaker B: Mad Scramble. [00:09:27] Speaker A: Kevin Smith will only be appearing on Saturday. We will not see Kevin Smith. [00:09:32] Speaker B: And Greg Smith will only be appearing on Friday. [00:09:35] Speaker A: I mean, we could try to go on a Saturday or Sunday. No, drag's like, nope, nope, nope. We will not be doing that. [00:09:43] Speaker B: We will not be doing that. [00:09:47] Speaker A: All right. Yeah, there's a lot. We do like Kevin Smith, though. [00:09:52] Speaker B: We do. We saw him and then Dan killed him. Tried to kill him. [00:09:57] Speaker A: You were there, too. [00:09:58] Speaker B: I know, but I. I think it was you. [00:10:01] Speaker A: Well, yes. Oh, wow. Look, D. Von Dudley will be there. [00:10:07] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:10:08] Speaker A: That's exciting. I guess. Hopefully. Well, for those of you that don't know our tradition at SummerCon, we try to go on a Friday so we can actually talk to the comic book creators that are there. [00:10:21] Speaker B: Yes. [00:10:22] Speaker A: We are not going there for all the autographs. I just pulled up the guest list to see if I could find comic creators here. [00:10:30] Speaker B: Very, very. [00:10:31] Speaker A: Ah, here's some. Well, it says Kevin Smith will be there. Who? He has created comics, so. That is true. True. Roy Thomas is going to be there. [00:10:40] Speaker B: All right. [00:10:41] Speaker A: That's kind of a big deal, I would say. In fact, we're doing a Roy Thomas comic today. What is number one? [00:10:48] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:49] Speaker A: Clay Man, Simon Bisley. Steve Englehart is going to be there. [00:10:53] Speaker B: Oh, we should bring a Bristol cult for him. [00:10:58] Speaker A: That would be weird. [00:11:00] Speaker B: Didn't he do that one Booster Gold? [00:11:02] Speaker A: No, Steve Anklehart did. Oh, no. We were just trashing all of his work. [00:11:06] Speaker B: Okay, well, I thought. I thought it was tied in with the Booster Gold, though, didn't we? [00:11:12] Speaker A: Just stay. Am I missing this? Steve Englehart did the. He did a bunch. Obviously he's did a bunch of Marvel stuff. Yes, but didn't we just say he did Millennium? [00:11:23] Speaker B: Yes. [00:11:24] Speaker A: And Green Lantern. [00:11:26] Speaker B: Yes. [00:11:27] Speaker A: Maybe we should bring those books. [00:11:28] Speaker B: No Booster. [00:11:29] Speaker A: Green Lantern books. [00:11:31] Speaker B: I like to bring the unpopular book that someone did. [00:11:35] Speaker A: When did he do Booster Gold? [00:11:36] Speaker B: No, no, no. I thought that. I thought, per our conversation two weeks [00:11:40] Speaker A: ago, that he ended Booster Gold. [00:11:43] Speaker B: Yeah, he ended it. [00:11:45] Speaker A: He also Wrote. It says he wrote Green Lantern, contributed to Millennium, and worked on Mr. [00:11:49] Speaker B: Miracle. [00:11:50] Speaker A: Well, I think saying that he contributed to Millennium would be a small. I mean, considering the book that. Yeah, the. The New Guardians that came out of Millennium was his book. [00:12:00] Speaker B: Well, then we bring one of those later created. [00:12:04] Speaker A: Oh, yes. We talked about before he went to work for Malibu and then did some West Coast Avengers, some ff, some Malibu. Well, that's cool. It's cool that we just talked about how we think his career got derailed by Millennium, and now we can go ask him. [00:12:19] Speaker B: Hey, how did you. Did your career get derailed by Millennium? Because I don't like to talk about that. Who are these kids? [00:12:28] Speaker A: But Timothy's on. I don't really consider him a comic [00:12:32] Speaker B: creator for the most part, but stuff he's written has been turned into comics. He's a nice guy. [00:12:39] Speaker A: Mike Friedrich. I don't know this creator. Porn sack. Pish piche shote. [00:12:50] Speaker B: Okay, I'm not familiar either. [00:12:52] Speaker A: Well, good. We can go find out. Dan Panacean. [00:13:00] Speaker B: Dg. Chick Kester. [00:13:04] Speaker A: There's a lot of new people I get to meet. Frank, Thierry, Shay Grayson, Randy Emberlin. We know him. [00:13:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:13:13] Speaker A: Somebody on the comics gate list. [00:13:15] Speaker B: Oh, nice. [00:13:18] Speaker A: Richard Warner and Jason Metcalf. So some people we've known from before. Some people are new. So we can come with us on that Friday if we get to go. I assume that means I'll be working on a Saturday, but that's okay. [00:13:36] Speaker B: That's what you have to do. [00:13:38] Speaker A: We will. I. I shouldn't say that. We're gonna try. I should look to see what tickets cost. [00:13:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, hey, if this doesn't have. [00:13:45] Speaker A: They're available. [00:13:46] Speaker B: At least. [00:13:46] Speaker A: At least. [00:13:47] Speaker B: There's Jet. There's Grit City. In the future. [00:13:51] Speaker A: Do we have a table? [00:13:52] Speaker B: It's. It's in the works, Dan. It's in the works. [00:13:55] Speaker A: Oh, I see. Greg. [00:13:56] Speaker B: Okay, it's in the works. [00:13:58] Speaker A: So Greg commits to get tables for us for the show. [00:14:01] Speaker B: And it's in the works, Dan. It's in the works. [00:14:05] Speaker A: Completely happened. We were going to. Guy, you were even going to talk to the showrunners about doing a live podcast during the show. Greg, has that happened? [00:14:13] Speaker B: I'm talking to people. It's in the works, Dan. It's in the works. I don't know if we can or not, but if we could, it'd be cool. [00:14:22] Speaker A: Well, I did a. I. I went and asked for some help on a business plan for the podcast. [00:14:29] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:14:30] Speaker A: And in the business plan. [00:14:32] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:32] Speaker A: It said that the best way to advertise our podcast would be for Greg to promote it while tabling at cons. [00:14:39] Speaker B: I do all the time. That is, I. I wear the shirt, I talk it up, I tell people about it. People actually come by and say, hey, I've listened to your show. Where's Dan? I want to yell at him. [00:14:57] Speaker A: That's why you don't say that at all. I. I think I'm. I'm. I'm the most popular figure on the podcast. It's clear. [00:15:02] Speaker B: I've heard. I've heard, I've heard. I've heard many people come. That's that. You know, listeners, you should. We should do like a. [00:15:11] Speaker A: They love it when I drink out of my bottles. Your bottles. [00:15:16] Speaker B: And they go clink, clink, clink. Yeah, exactly. Just like that. [00:15:19] Speaker A: They love that. [00:15:20] Speaker B: They love that. [00:15:21] Speaker A: They love. They love when my phone goes off and then I get mad when Greg's goes off. They. They love all those things. Well, yeah, maybe. Oh, you know what? [00:15:32] Speaker B: Dog jumps over the fence and then rolls and poop and then comes home. [00:15:35] Speaker A: You know? You know, I don't bring up the fact that your dog all over your house on the podcast, but my dog is one bad thing I tell you about before the podcast starts and it gets brought up. [00:15:46] Speaker B: They. They go on their pads. [00:15:49] Speaker A: Huh. So the. We are. And she's beautiful. She's right here. [00:15:57] Speaker B: You said she was number two dog today because of the incident. [00:16:01] Speaker A: Well, sometimes she's ranked number two of two. It doesn't. It happens once every 365 days. [00:16:07] Speaker B: Is two of two. I thought there were three. What am I missing here? [00:16:10] Speaker A: The other one is not here, so. Oh, see, the maligator is. Is not here. Anyway, we are way off track. We are way covering a book today. Well, I mean, if you listen to this podcast before you're realizing we're not way off track. [00:16:24] Speaker B: It's. [00:16:24] Speaker A: We finished Booster Gold, and we're just so sad. It is. [00:16:27] Speaker B: Yes. [00:16:29] Speaker A: We were sad at the ending. We. We're even a little bit sad that Dirk was a manhunter kind of sad. [00:16:37] Speaker B: Kind of like get out of your. [00:16:39] Speaker A: Dirk who. What kind of men do you think he hunts? Which do you think he hunts? Twinks? Twunks? Muscle bears? Bears. Let's see. Otters. You know, leather daddies. He. [00:17:00] Speaker B: He seems. He seems like he could take a couple from category A and category B [00:17:07] Speaker A: and maybe F. So you think he's the daddy? [00:17:12] Speaker B: I mean, the mustache. [00:17:14] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:17:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:16] Speaker A: So you think he's like a porn. Gay porn star? 70s. Yeah. Mustache guy. [00:17:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:23] Speaker A: You know, the mustache has come back. [00:17:24] Speaker B: It is come back. [00:17:26] Speaker A: It is also, like, I woke up one day and all of a sudden everybody was wearing loose jeans again. [00:17:31] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Did you want to grow a mustache? [00:17:34] Speaker A: No, I was just sad. [00:17:37] Speaker B: Dan. Have you ever had a mustache? [00:17:40] Speaker A: Greg? [00:17:41] Speaker B: Yes. [00:17:42] Speaker A: Can I grow facial hair? [00:17:44] Speaker B: I was just asking because I. I mean, if you did, it would take, like, a while. [00:17:49] Speaker A: I believe I had a goatee for, like, a week. It was horrendous. [00:17:56] Speaker B: It was horrendous. [00:17:58] Speaker A: I believe there's a picture of me hiking on Mountain St. Helens with it somewhere. It's. It's not good. It's not good. Well, anyway, you're. [00:18:11] Speaker B: You're lucky Dirk wouldn't hunt you. That's true. For that. [00:18:17] Speaker A: For that. [00:18:18] Speaker B: For that little hair. [00:18:19] Speaker A: For that reason. Like. Yeah, I mean, he'd hunt the muscles. [00:18:22] Speaker B: He'd go, oh, muscle. [00:18:25] Speaker A: But you didn't classify him as going after the muscles, so. Well, anyway, I. I said he might [00:18:29] Speaker B: take a little from every column. He's not, I think, set on every. On anyone, particularly. [00:18:36] Speaker A: We. Well, what if Booster had continued? But he didn't. So we had to grab a what if omnibus. [00:18:46] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [00:18:48] Speaker A: To find out what if. A lot of things we could. There's all sorts of questions we could ask in here. [00:18:53] Speaker B: It's almost like, in fact, too many choices. [00:18:58] Speaker A: We found out that tomorrow's back issues, number 111, has a whole bunch of articles both on what if and DC Imaginary Stories. [00:19:06] Speaker B: Whoa. That's a lot of reading. It is, but it's. It's actually, as we were going through, as Dan was pointing out things to me, I was like, oh, wow, that's cool. That's okay. I like that. Yeah, I've read some of those. [00:19:24] Speaker A: What if the Avengers had, like, never formed up? [00:19:27] Speaker B: What? [00:19:28] Speaker A: Or they all quit after their first mission. [00:19:30] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. What if they. What if they did? [00:19:35] Speaker A: What if the Hulk had Bruce Banner's brain? What if Bucky had lived? [00:19:46] Speaker B: It's actually. [00:19:46] Speaker A: It would have been great because it would have gotten rid of one terrible Marvel movie universe character, and we could have gotten rid of one terrible show, and it would have been. Could have gotten rid of one terrible movie. One terrible show. [00:19:59] Speaker B: Jeez. [00:20:02] Speaker A: Fantastic opinions, actually. [00:20:04] Speaker B: Opinions. I. I don't. I don't share your opinion. [00:20:08] Speaker A: What if Rick Jones had become the Hulk? I don't think people now realize how popular of a character Rick Jones actually was, even into the early 70s. Right? Yeah, Rick Jones really faded as a character as the Marvel Universe. Went on. [00:20:26] Speaker B: Does he need to come back? Does he need a second? [00:20:30] Speaker A: A revival, maybe? I'm sure they've tried. I mean, anything that's ip, they're going to try. Yeah, because they have two. They have a what if Rick Jones had died, too? [00:20:41] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. [00:20:43] Speaker A: What if Ronin killed Rick in Avengers 96? I don't know that story at all. What if Jarella had lived? There's a lot of Hulk stories. [00:20:55] Speaker B: A lot of Hulk stories. [00:20:59] Speaker A: What if Jean Grey had. What if Phoenix had not died? There's a lot of. This is kind of fun. I think one of the initial problems. I think we started to mention this last week, though, when you have a what if. So there's two kind of approaches to these what if stories. And D.C. kind of had the attitude in the Silver Age of it's an imaginary story, right? Like, imagine Clark Kent and Lois Lane are married and they have two super kids, super babies. [00:21:30] Speaker B: And those babies are doing crazy baby things, flying all around, laser and stuff. Wait a minute. There's a whole entire V series that has a super baby? [00:21:43] Speaker A: Okay. [00:21:43] Speaker B: Anyways. [00:21:44] Speaker A: Well, and then. I don't want to talk about that. So what. And then they had, you know, what if Batman and. And Superman sons teamed up and. Oh, wait, they had a whole. That's what they do in comics now. But, yeah, I mean, that was kind of the thing. And it was a. It was a. It was an interesting thing because I love those stories. But the readers at the time, Dave. Well, the older readers. So they were meant for younger readers. But the. The older readers did not like those stories. [00:22:18] Speaker B: They were very. [00:22:19] Speaker A: They felt like they interrupted the continuity and did things and did weird things [00:22:24] Speaker B: and so buying the book. [00:22:27] Speaker A: Yeah. So Marvel tries doing this in the Bronze Age. Right. And so this is 1979. There's enough of a Marvel Universe round. So we. Marvel Universe has been around since what, 58. No, that's. That's. No, that's not. That's DC. Right. It'd been 61. When's Fantastic Four 1? [00:22:54] Speaker B: It's gotta be like 60 something. So I thought that they were around before. [00:23:01] Speaker A: No, D.C. came first. Yeah, but the Flash came back. The Flash came back in. The Flash came back before Marvel dropped FF1. [00:23:10] Speaker B: Okay. [00:23:13] Speaker A: Not before Marvel came back. Remember, we're talking about before. I think most people consider FF number one to be the start of Marvel Silver Age. [00:23:23] Speaker B: Well, they're the first family. The first book. [00:23:26] Speaker A: Yeah. So 61. November 61. And yeah, it's. Because that would have been the showcase issue with the flash was 58. Right. [00:23:39] Speaker B: I see. [00:23:41] Speaker A: And then. So, yeah, I mean, Marvel's coming back, but there's some other things going on too, because you've got like Journey into Mystery. Right. You've got some different things on. But you know, a lot of people don't realize Avengers comes after Fantastic Four. Spider man comes after Fantastic Four. Fantastic Four was the relaunch of the Marvel universe with Kirby and Stan Lee with much controversy. So we're not, we're not. I promise we're not here down that road today. We are not here for that today. We've got another controversial creator that created this book. So we will, we will stay there. Not controversial until recently, actually. [00:24:26] Speaker B: Okay. [00:24:26] Speaker A: In the last year, which is weird. I would say maybe somewhat controversial, but I would say Roy Thomas stayed pretty much out of controversy a lot of the time until he said he created Wolverine. [00:24:38] Speaker B: Oh, and then that became the issue. [00:24:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Because he said, well, if you're an editor on a book, that means you helped create the character. And it's like, that's a weird one with Roy too, because I, I don't, I am actually, I don't think we're going to try to ask him that at summercon, but that is a conversation I would like to have with him and just get his insight there. Like, because I want to just be like, Roy, you created so many things. [00:25:11] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:12] Speaker A: Why this, why is this important to you? [00:25:14] Speaker B: Why? [00:25:15] Speaker A: Why, like why. Why are you holding on to this one thing? [00:25:18] Speaker B: So the money. [00:25:19] Speaker A: Roy was such a historian too and still is. Like, he's a major contributor to Tomorrows. He's written all sorts of articles. He, I would say Roy too, kind of like Paul Levitz in a way, but, but more so, he was really good at like doing the research and like pulling out the older characters too and then like kind of reimagining them or re. Buffing them up or. Right. Taking over something. You know, he was Stan's right hand man for a while, you know, no doubt being groomed for editorial things and for writing and. Yeah, I just, I kind of want to, you know, I, I kind of want to ask the man, right. Like, why is, you know, do you hate Len Wean that much? Like, what is the issue? [00:26:10] Speaker B: And then he'll. [00:26:11] Speaker A: Why, why do you want to take credit for this? [00:26:14] Speaker B: I signed an NBA that says I can't talk about this anymore. [00:26:17] Speaker A: Maybe, I don't know. One concept he does come up with and you know, from benefiting from working all these great Marvel creators and working alongside of Stan is The concept of what if. And one of the things about what if, and we started talking about it before is you. These are tough stories sometimes because one, they require a lot of editorial commentary. [00:26:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:26:45] Speaker A: Inside the book. Because the assumption is if you're doing a what if. So what if is a storyline where you take a point in history and then you say, what if something else happened. Right. And some of you probably saw the cartoons on Disney plus where they did a what if series. A lot of those what ifs were out of the Marvel movie universe. Movie. Yeah. [00:27:09] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:10] Speaker A: So yay. [00:27:11] Speaker B: No, hey, they're so good. [00:27:14] Speaker A: I thought there were some, again, like the what if comic. I thought there were some strong episodes of what if, and I thought there were some pretty weak ass episodes of what if. I watched all of them. [00:27:26] Speaker B: There's always going to be some stories that hit and some stories that miss. [00:27:31] Speaker A: That's also the challenge of what if though, because kind of like us doing this podcast, we can't predict what the listener. Well, you tell us and we ignore you, but we can't always predict what the listener will get jazzed about. Right. So if we, if we go off and do 25 booster gold issues, we're going to have to assume that, you know, we're going to lose some people and we'll gain some people. Then as soon as we start talking about what if. Right. All those people we picked up during Booster Gold that were there just there for the Booster Gold ride are going to be like, oh, they're talking about a Marvel book now and they're talking about Roy Thomas and we hate this and we're never going to listen to you again. So it is. It is hard to do that. In addition, with what if they, Roy Thomas has a lot of back matter in the first issue, which is nice and basically says there's no possible way for me to write. I came up with the idea. I have this. I wrote the first two issues, but I wanted to leave it to some other creators and people that were writing the characters at the time to do some more of these issues too. And that could be. And he meant writing the characters out in 1979, like when this book was coming out. [00:28:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:40] Speaker A: One of the things you could do. You know, it is amazing too how bored Greg gets when we go through all this stuff consistently. [00:28:48] Speaker B: I'm not, I'm not bored. I'm just like, I've had a very long day. 4 o'. [00:28:53] Speaker A: Clock. [00:28:53] Speaker B: Came very early. 3. 3 o'. Clock, came very early. 4 o' clock for work. Came very early. [00:28:59] Speaker A: So. [00:29:00] Speaker B: So it's the rest of the day yesterday in the er, so. [00:29:06] Speaker A: Guilt trip. Greg's back. All right. [00:29:09] Speaker B: Hey, you called me. You called me bored. I'm just. I've had. I've had a couple of days, man. So my energy is low. [00:29:19] Speaker A: Please send me candy with the back matter here. It's interesting that Roy points that out, and I think that's probably right. But one of the challenges, I think, with a what if book is how do you pick up a consistent audience with constant. With a new thing each month or. Well, every other month. Because they're big books, and they do it every other month. [00:29:39] Speaker B: They are big. [00:29:40] Speaker A: And a constantly shifting creative team. Because if. What if number one's about Spider man and the Fantastic Four? What if number two is about the Hulk? Well, I go to the newsstand as a kid. I love the Fanta. I love the Hulk. Actually, at that time when this came out, I would have, oh, what if the Hulk. But then I wouldn't have cared about getting the Spidey book, probably. [00:30:03] Speaker B: And I mean, but it's. But this book has the thing, and that's kind of like the Hulk, except he's orange. [00:30:10] Speaker A: And then, like, number four, what if the invaders had stayed together after World War II? No, I was just, you know, getting to that. And then, like, now I've got outside of Captain America, and then that's a different torch. You know, I wouldn't have known any of these characters, probably, Right? [00:30:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:27] Speaker A: Except I would have known the submariner if I read issue one of this, and I would have thought he was a jerk. So why would I pick up the book Submariner? [00:30:35] Speaker B: He is a jerk? [00:30:37] Speaker A: What if Captain America hadn't vanished during World War II? That's kind of fun. [00:30:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:43] Speaker A: Anyway. But the. I don't know. [00:30:45] Speaker B: This is. [00:30:45] Speaker A: I was going through all that just to say. Greg. Yes. How would you market this book? I would tell you it's definitely changing. [00:30:52] Speaker B: It's a new adventure every month with your favorite heroes changing places, roles and faces, stories being told by people you didn't know you wanted to hear one from, and an art team that you couldn't imagine pulling off such fantastic things. What if is an amazing journey brought to you by Marvel, and you can marvel at it each month on the newsstand. [00:31:22] Speaker A: So you just literally sold it to the group of people that we said already were gonna buy it, Kind of like the people that had been buying the stories. [00:31:30] Speaker B: Well, no, I mean, it also. It also could inspire those who don't know anything. About it. So if you like stories about things that you don't know, but they are loosely tied to other things that you don't know, you're gonna love this because it is a hodgepodge mess. Turkey dumpling of. [00:31:55] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, what if is the comic that comic historians love? But I, I would think they would love at least that was Roy Thomas's goal, who was a comic historian who was a comic fan. And Roy Thomas is one of the first wave of the comic fan that becomes a comic writer and editor. Right. And so he loved these things. We got into it and that's great. And this is great for Roy and it's great for him to cite the history. But we're going to get into this book. I promise. We're going to get into what if number one. Yeah, what if. And I've got the big omnibus in front of me. He's got it on the computer. [00:32:38] Speaker B: Do you know how I'd sell this to somebody that. And, and it's like, okay, hey, you know that Tales from the Crypt book that you like? Imagine Tales from the Crypt. Not scary, just using superheroes. And, and your Crypt Keeper is the Watcher. And they're like, I like Tilson or Crypt. I kind of like superheroes. I'm like. And the best part is you don't have to know Jack Diddly about any of these things. [00:33:07] Speaker A: Well, I think also too. Who is Jim Craig? [00:33:14] Speaker B: He's, it's, it's Jim Craig. You don't know. [00:33:20] Speaker A: I don't. [00:33:21] Speaker B: I'm surprised. [00:33:23] Speaker A: Do you. [00:33:24] Speaker B: It's Jim Craig, Dan. [00:33:27] Speaker A: Why are you acting like that? [00:33:28] Speaker B: Why am I serious? I, I. [00:33:31] Speaker A: Are you being serious or is this an artist I should like just know. [00:33:36] Speaker B: Why don't you look him up, Dan? [00:33:38] Speaker A: He's done a lot of stuff. Apparently. [00:33:39] Speaker B: It's Jim Craig. [00:33:42] Speaker A: Well, what has Jim Craig done, Greg? A lot of famous. A lot of things, Greg. Why don't you tell me one if he's such a, well, an artist that you know all about. Say one thing. Jim Craig did Marvel Books. Thanks, Greg. [00:33:58] Speaker B: You're welcome, Dan. You said one thing. [00:34:01] Speaker A: And super, super duper helpful. I appreciate that. [00:34:05] Speaker B: It's the meme. I should have set this. I should have set the bar higher. [00:34:09] Speaker A: I don't, I, I don't mind the art in this book. Yeah, no, but I'm just thinking too, if you're going to lead off a book and you're trying to market it, you don't get a relatively new artist. Right. Team to. You get. [00:34:26] Speaker B: What if you did though you get [00:34:28] Speaker A: Jack Kirby to draw this or you get Stephen Co to draw it? [00:34:33] Speaker B: Do you think Jack would have wanted to. [00:34:36] Speaker A: Jack did do some what ifs, so. [00:34:38] Speaker B: No, I know, but do you think he would have wanted to do that first issue? [00:34:42] Speaker A: I don't know if they had him yet. They had him back, didn't he? And by 79 he was off. [00:34:47] Speaker B: Well, they were starting. They were starting this in 77, so release. 79 started 77. [00:34:54] Speaker A: So I mean, I. So it might have been on the border of when they could get Jack back. I think Jack, based on what Jack does, how he. His approach to comics do I think Jack, based on the interviews I've read, would want to go back and rehash old stories? I know he did some. I don't know if that would be his favorite thing to do because he was always saying that I want to push to new things. [00:35:19] Speaker B: Yeah, but he's telling an old story in a new way. [00:35:23] Speaker A: However. However he says that. But then when we were reading Jimmy Olsen, he likes to grab his old toys and play with them too. Like the newsboy Legion. Yeah. So would he like to grab his old toys and present them in a different way and do Spider man too? I don't see why not. [00:35:42] Speaker B: I think he might. But I also think he might. He might have been legally bound to not do so at the moment this thing dropped. Or was. [00:35:50] Speaker A: Yeah, that. That is entirely true. But I mean, it didn't have to be Jack Kirby. Right. There was a lot of hot artists at the time. [00:35:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:58] Speaker A: You know, we get a. Oh, that [00:36:00] Speaker B: could have been that. That junior guy. [00:36:04] Speaker A: Yeah, we get a well established anchor on the book. [00:36:06] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:36:07] Speaker A: In Pablo Marcos. But yeah, Jim Craig knew at this time, you know, no disrespect to Mr. Craig. [00:36:15] Speaker B: He does fantastic work. [00:36:18] Speaker A: The watcher does not. Is there's something wrong with him. He does not look like this. The rest. [00:36:25] Speaker B: What does he look like to you right now, Dan? [00:36:28] Speaker A: I. Okay, so let me. Sorry. Let me get the team out. So it's Roy Thomas. Conceived, written, edited the book. Jim Craig pencils. Marco Pablo Marcus inks. John Costanza and Janice Cohen on John Costanza on letters. We've heard of that guy. And Janice Cohen on colors. So we've got what if the spy. What if Spider man joined the Fantastic Four dramatic debut of one of the most unique features in comic mag history. The what if series presented by Stan Lee. And the watcher here looks like he has a giant head and he is shredded. [00:37:11] Speaker B: Yes. I. He's been watching those Calories. He's been watching those carbs. [00:37:19] Speaker A: Yeah. And so the Watcher is a character set up for these stories with to the Watcher. I. I know he appeared in other things, but they use the Watcher. He observes the universe. He first appeared in Fantastic Four number 13, way back in January of 1963. And the watcher is a perfect character because he's presenting tales from different universes. And if you know anything about the Watcher, the Watcher can't interfere. He can only watch. [00:37:50] Speaker B: He sounds like the Trip Keeper. [00:37:53] Speaker A: Yes. [00:37:53] Speaker B: So presenting tales, he says, watching from afar. Oh, yes. [00:37:58] Speaker A: Well, he says, instead of being the Crypt Caper, he says, I am the Watcher. Since Time out of Mind, I have observed the rise and fall of civilizations, of worlds, of galaxies. I know all that is, most that has been and much of what will be. I have also many windows into the strange parallel worlds of what might have been. For none save a Watcher can truly know what could have happened but for the invisible workings of an incomprehensible fate. For instance, what if Spider man had joined the Fantastic Four? Oh, and then we get a really cool Jim Craig, by the way, really cool splash page here of the Watcher going through all these kind of different things that could have happened. Like, what if Reed had become the Thing? Well, what if the Axis powers had won? That's terrible. [00:38:56] Speaker B: Yes. [00:38:56] Speaker A: What if the Avengers had fought the Squadron Supreme? I thought they did fight the Squadron Supreme. Well, anyway, that would mean they fought the Justice League, right? [00:39:09] Speaker B: I think so. Yes. [00:39:10] Speaker A: Yeah. So dots exist as to whether Spider Man Spectacular about with a certain colorfully clad alien took place in this time continuum or another. I don't know what that's about. There's a lot of things I don't know about because I didn't read all these. And that's what I said. If we keep doing these, we may need to bring on some help. [00:39:31] Speaker B: So much, Dan, you're gonna. Your mind is gonna expand. It's gonna be fantastic. [00:39:37] Speaker A: Yeah, that's. That's the problem. So. Well, here is the biggest problem with this story to start out. Well, not to start out, but we're going to go anyway. We tell the story. Fantastic Four get together. Peter Parker gets bitten by a spider. We all know that. [00:39:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:54] Speaker A: And then we go back to Spider Man. We go back to Peter in the spider suit, contemplating his life and what he's going to do. And this all actually happened in Spider Man Number One. So Spider man, the impetuous teenager, tries to figure out how he can make money as Spider Man. And he just goes to Fantastic Four headquarters, knocks on the door and is like, let me in. And he goes in and they basically tell him, we're not going to pay you. And he leaves. And there was a lot of text in this book in honor of the Silver Age Marvel books, and this is exactly what happened. So Spidey goes in the Fantastic Four, basically tells him to kick rocks, and he leaves. And so until. Until. Well, it's weird. We get this man getting hit. Or we get this interlude. [00:40:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:40:53] Speaker A: On page 15 of the omnibus. I don't know the issue number page, because I'm reading out of an omnibus. It does have page numbers. [00:41:00] Speaker B: Mine has no page numbers. [00:41:02] Speaker A: Your omnibus has no page numbers. Damn digital. Anyway, but we get this interlude here where the watcher just goes into this whole thing. So we got like sort of an hour to Outer Limits. Like, yeah. Twilight Zone sort of explanation of things. And he cites Robert Frost. [00:41:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, Robert Frost is in the book mysteriously and magically. [00:41:28] Speaker A: And the Watcher's lifting also car. Yeah, well, basically, yeah. He goes through this whole scenario. Somebody's about to be hit by a car. The onlooker looks in fear as the person dies. The onlooker jumps and they're both killed. Or the onlooker jumps and saves them both. And he's like, which is the fate. We could be all these different ways. Honestly, too, I do like the art in the book, for the most part. But except for how the watcher is drawn, because the Watcher is drawn really inconsistently and really is disturbing. [00:42:02] Speaker B: I see it just. [00:42:04] Speaker A: It's. It's freaky. [00:42:06] Speaker B: You're like, gosh darn it, I want my watcher to look when I'm watching the watcher who watches me. [00:42:14] Speaker A: Now, one of the challenges of the book. Because we aren't the watcher. [00:42:18] Speaker B: Yes. [00:42:18] Speaker A: Is who had access to fantastic four number one in 1979 or to Spider man number one in 1979. Now. It was a lot cheaper then. I wish I could go back to 1979 and buy a copy of. Of Spider man number one. [00:42:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:35] Speaker A: But, yeah, this requires a lot of backstorytelling and a lot of editorial notes. Because while if you were reading the. So what a great book. If you're a historian and you've been reading the whole time. So if you were 13 or 12 in 1961. No Spider man in 63. [00:42:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:42:58] Speaker A: And. And you read the first and you'd been buying these all the way through, and you're a Fantastic four fan. Well, you know, this happened. You might even have the comics. You might not. But that means you are now. So in 73, you would have been 23. And then. So now you're 29. You're grabbing the book. Cool. What does this book do for me at six years old? [00:43:34] Speaker B: At six years old. Ooh. It doesn't. [00:43:37] Speaker A: I wasn't even six yet. At five years old. It doesn't. Yeah, but what if I was now? I did like these what if books when I was like 10, 11 years old. I thought they were cool. [00:43:47] Speaker B: Yeah. Because it's, like, different. It is. [00:43:52] Speaker A: I love. Yeah. It's just a lot. It's a lot of. You have to learn a lot to get there. It's like starting an episode of. Of Yu Gi. [00:44:05] Speaker B: Oh. Or Digimon. [00:44:11] Speaker A: There's a lot of know. To get here. Well, anyway, sue calls Spidey back, and they all kind of. Reed blows out the torch. And with water, actually. And they. They just. They all decide, we'll let Spider man in. And then Pete, like, gets excited. He's like, I've never done this before. But he pulls off his mask and shows them he's Peter Parker. And then we get all the stuff you read in Spider Man. Oh, Aunt May is terribly sick and she'll have a heart attack if I come back and she finds out I'm Spider Man. I can't tell her in Sweet Aunt May. I do this all for her. So that hasn't changed. [00:44:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:55] Speaker A: And then they have a press conference and they reveal Spider man is the newest member of Fantastic. Of the Fantastic Four, now known as the Fantastic Five. Thank you, Greg. Thank you for being on cue there. I have no idea what we were doing, but you were on Tying my shoe. [00:45:12] Speaker B: My shoe has come untied. [00:45:14] Speaker A: Why are you tying your shoe? We're in the middle of a podcast. You're not watching anywhere. [00:45:17] Speaker B: You never know what could happen in life. Dan, I might have to just jump up in the middle of this recording and leave. [00:45:27] Speaker A: You might I? It's very clear that the what if story was not Greg Smith's story. Cup of tea. You were like, you're having none of this. Like, the what if is like. [00:45:38] Speaker B: Okay, so I might have fallen asleep while reading the book at one point. I'm not going to lie. [00:45:43] Speaker A: Well, we get more backstory. So they have a press conference. J. Jonah Jameson comes, and instead of hating Spidey, he now loves him because the Fantastic Four super popular, so he wants people to read his newspaper. So he's going to now endorse Spider Man. Then. Then we get a couple of pages of Spidey villains, right? [00:46:04] Speaker B: Whoa. Yeah. [00:46:05] Speaker A: And we find out that the Chameleon, his plans are ruined because he can't impersonate Spider man because people love him. Now the Vulture gets just throttled by the Fantastic Five. [00:46:19] Speaker B: That is pretty good. I'm like, oh, man. [00:46:22] Speaker A: But I think the other thing we start to find out is that because he's not fighting on his own, Peter doesn't develop his super science. That's true. And he's relying on Reed to do it for him. [00:46:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:38] Speaker A: And so before, where he invented his webs and he does this thing, he continues to learn and go to university and do all these things to advance his scientific knowledge. He's now just going in and hanging out with the Torch and the Thing and beating stuff up. [00:46:53] Speaker B: Yeah, he's just muscle. [00:46:56] Speaker A: Yeah. And so then we find out the team's gonna go up to the moon. [00:47:03] Speaker B: Going to the moon. [00:47:05] Speaker A: And they basically tell sue, who, correct me if I am incorrect, but in Fantastic Four lore, is a scientist. [00:47:15] Speaker B: Yes. [00:47:17] Speaker A: On Reed's level. Potentially, yes. And the Thing was a pilot, right? Yes. And Johnny was. [00:47:29] Speaker B: Johnny. No, Demon. I think he was piling. [00:47:32] Speaker A: And they basically say, cool, we've got Spidey now. Sue, stay home. [00:47:38] Speaker B: No, that is incorrect. That's not what you do. Spidey can't. He's not. He's not a scientist. [00:47:47] Speaker A: Well, we meet somebody from Fantastic Four 13. So this is where I do. Like this how he's consistently, like, aligning up the timeline, like 13 and Spidey number one. And, like, putting right those things together. We're not deviating from that. We find out about some weird guy that's bald but hair. I've never seen this guy before. [00:48:07] Speaker B: I wanted my haircut like that. [00:48:10] Speaker A: I could get my haircut like that. [00:48:12] Speaker B: You could get your haircut like that. You should get your haircut like that. Dan. That. [00:48:16] Speaker A: I know there's. I know there's some people screaming at me right now. This is Ivan Kragoff. He must be an FF villain. I'm so sorry. And this is where, like, I should have. This is where I should have brought in some help because I have this whole blue side of the moon storyline. I have. I had literally no idea. Like, I have no idea what was happening in fantastic 413 and 14. I am so sorry. I. I am completely lost here. The only thing I will say is, why would their rocket ship say Fantastic Five on it? So they had time to change the 4 to a 5. But they couldn't find sua seat. [00:48:59] Speaker B: Well, you know, the rocket itself was built for. Only they couldn't do it, Dan, because five people set the off the whole entire balance of the ship. It's real scientific. Wait, no. Real scientific would have been putting Su on the ship, taking Spider man out. [00:49:19] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and I know she wasn't written that way at the time, so again, this is some rewriting of history and just shows. I read Fantastic Four much later. Yeah, but you left your most powerful member at home. [00:49:31] Speaker B: Yes, which seems silly, you know, why [00:49:36] Speaker A: the person that really could put a force bubble around the whole ship and save them, potentially. Right. Is sitting at home. [00:49:42] Speaker B: Well, that, I mean, that's why she's going to get picked up by Neymar. [00:49:47] Speaker A: Hey, spoiler. [00:49:48] Speaker B: Oh, oh, I'm sorry. [00:49:49] Speaker A: Basically. That's the next page. [00:49:51] Speaker B: It's the next page. Hey, sue, is that the. [00:49:55] Speaker A: Why is the watcher like a different color? [00:49:58] Speaker B: Well, because he's got to hide himself on the moon from everybody. [00:50:05] Speaker A: Well, anyway, they fight Kragoff and these ape things here. [00:50:09] Speaker B: They are not ape things, they are apes. He brought apes to the moon because [00:50:13] Speaker A: that's the cosmic ray. Apes. [00:50:15] Speaker B: Cosmic rays. [00:50:16] Speaker A: His whole. His whole plan was to expose himself and monkeys to cosmic rays, right? [00:50:21] Speaker B: Yeah, to make them stronger so they could. [00:50:24] Speaker A: I'm not sure this was necessarily the strongest FF story. [00:50:28] Speaker B: Um, I mean, it's strong monkeys. [00:50:32] Speaker A: I remember the UFOs. [00:50:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, the UFOs. [00:50:36] Speaker A: That same thing happened to them, Right? They were exposed to cosmic rays too. And there was. And they were the U. Foes. [00:50:44] Speaker B: You, you, you foes, foes, foes. [00:50:49] Speaker A: Little, little, little Silver Age Bronze Age goodness out of Marvel there. [00:50:56] Speaker B: Gotcha. [00:50:56] Speaker A: So anyway, sue is back at headquarters and yes, she's like brain attacked by Namor. How many powers does Namor have? [00:51:09] Speaker B: Oh, he's got a lot. And he's got many more than you didn't even know about. That's why he's pretty amazing. [00:51:18] Speaker A: Well, I know by the end of this he's gonna have the power of stupidity. [00:51:22] Speaker B: Oh, come on now. [00:51:25] Speaker A: Well, he. Sue goes to meet him on the docks and there's like a hypnotic eye fish. [00:51:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:32] Speaker A: And then she crawls into a bubble [00:51:34] Speaker B: with them because you know that apparently. [00:51:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Also has a. Well, anyway, she's hypnotized by the hypnotic eye fish and Namor takes her off into the ocean. I heard a debate on another podcast today I was listening to, and they were arguing. Is it sub mariner or submariner? [00:51:55] Speaker B: Oh, I. I would say he's the Submariner because he navigates the sub level of the ocean as opposed to Submariner, which is someone who is in a submarine. [00:52:12] Speaker A: I see. I mean, so Black Manta would be a submariner. [00:52:19] Speaker B: Yes. [00:52:20] Speaker A: But this would be the Submariner. [00:52:22] Speaker B: Yes. [00:52:24] Speaker A: And now I've just mixed whole universes there. [00:52:26] Speaker B: You have. Here's the second question to your question though. If he's the Submariner, does that mean when someone gets hurt and is put on the injured list, he comes in as a sub to help out with [00:52:43] Speaker A: the team like the Legion of Substitute Heroes? [00:52:46] Speaker B: No, he comes. Yeah, he comes on to the. Oh, you hurt your elbow. Let me come in and help pitch a game or something like that. [00:52:52] Speaker A: So if like the Golden Age Torch got hurt in the Invaders, then they would call the sub. [00:52:57] Speaker B: No, no, I meant on the actual Mariners team. [00:53:01] Speaker A: Oh, on the actual. Unlike the baseball team, [00:53:05] Speaker B: he's the Submariner. [00:53:06] Speaker A: Well, who then? If we take that back to comics, then in the Invaders, if he's the Submariner, which Mariner would you pull to be part of the original Invaders team? [00:53:16] Speaker B: Which. Oh, which. Well, are you. So he's the Submariner. So there's a Dom Mariner. [00:53:25] Speaker A: I didn't say there was a Dom can zone, is your answer. Okay, there you go. Easy. We're not even gonna go there. We've answered the question. And so basically, since he's in a platoon too, it does make sense. The Submariner comes in when they're fighting lefty villains and Dom Canzone starts when they're fighting right handed villains. [00:53:47] Speaker B: There you go. [00:53:52] Speaker A: All right. Well, we meet the puppet master who apparently can take magical clay and he can mold it into things and then control them. Now there is a lot of criticism over the powers of Legion of Superheroes in the Silver Age. [00:54:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:13] Speaker A: And a lot of praise for Marvel books about how grown up they are and how more advanced the storytelling is and how different they are and how much better they are. And then I read them. [00:54:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:54:26] Speaker A: And they have a villain who makes magical clay and they can control people. [00:54:33] Speaker B: Are you saying that you don't think this is legitimate story? That something like this couldn't happen in the world? That this is not close to real? [00:54:43] Speaker A: I think that there must have been more to the story originally because this is a stupid character idea. If you don't get a lot more [00:54:52] Speaker B: to this, if you don't get this character, then you don't get a whole entire movie series not connected to Marvel, which is called Master. [00:55:01] Speaker A: I've never ever watched a single puppet Master movie. [00:55:05] Speaker B: But gosh, they're fantastic, Dan. There's so many of them, and they just keep. [00:55:11] Speaker A: They're just like Cyborg. [00:55:14] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I mean, it's Nemesis. Yeah. [00:55:19] Speaker A: I mean, well, I'll have to watch one. I do like horror movies. I will have to watch one, you know, would be really cool. [00:55:25] Speaker B: What? What? [00:55:26] Speaker A: Do they ever show that at the Pantages? [00:55:29] Speaker B: What, Nemesis? [00:55:31] Speaker A: No. [00:55:32] Speaker B: Or puppet. [00:55:32] Speaker A: Puppet master. [00:55:35] Speaker B: I could. [00:55:35] Speaker A: On this Friday? [00:55:36] Speaker B: Yeah, maybe they still do. [00:55:38] Speaker A: They still have those Friday. [00:55:39] Speaker B: Friday night fights. Friday night frights. [00:55:42] Speaker A: Frights. [00:55:42] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Friday night friends. They. [00:55:44] Speaker A: Yeah. How come we never go to this? [00:55:46] Speaker B: Because I'm working, Dan. [00:55:49] Speaker A: You're not working when the movie starts. [00:55:51] Speaker B: Sometimes I have things going on at the shop that I can't leave for. [00:55:56] Speaker A: Every time. [00:55:57] Speaker B: Not every time, but most. [00:55:58] Speaker A: The shop closed at 6. [00:56:00] Speaker B: Yeah, but it might be a Pokemon evening, or it could be a drawing event, or it could be a crafting thing. Or we might have a show that [00:56:08] Speaker A: night at the Retro Emporium on Meeker street in Kent, Washington, where you can relive your childhood. And Greg will always be there watching you from the back, staring at you through a camera. [00:56:21] Speaker B: Private. Making sure you know he's watching you and every move. Watching you. Well, watching you. [00:56:30] Speaker A: We meet the puppet master. He's controlling Namor, and he has puppets of Reed and Ben. [00:56:39] Speaker B: Oh, man. So wait, Namor is controlling sue, but the puppet master's controlling Namor? [00:56:50] Speaker A: Correct. [00:56:51] Speaker B: So Namor is a puppet of the puppet master, and sue is also a puppet of Namor and the puppet master. This goes deep, Dan. This goes deep. That's why he's a submariner. [00:57:08] Speaker A: It gets even deeper because the submariner. Yeah, they. The team gets back from outer space and the submariner is in their headquarters and they all try to beat him up. It takes them three full pages to figure out he's a projection. [00:57:22] Speaker B: Oh, wow. Pretty fishy. [00:57:24] Speaker A: Even though they keep attacking him after they figure it out, they're like, projection. [00:57:28] Speaker B: Let's still fight this guy. [00:57:31] Speaker A: Yes. And then Reed is the only sensible one, and he talks to him, and then the whole team. Reed decides he's going, but we're going after him. We'll rip up half the ocean floor if we have to, to go find the invisible girl. [00:57:47] Speaker B: I bet you Spider man can really get in there and. And do some damage in the water. [00:57:55] Speaker A: Well, you know when the spider is on the spout and the water comes down, he gets washed out. [00:58:04] Speaker B: Oh, so he's not. [00:58:07] Speaker A: But then when the sun comes up and dries up all the rain he climbs up the spout again. [00:58:15] Speaker B: That's a good story, Dan. I like it. I like it. [00:58:21] Speaker A: Well, now we have this really sort of. Now the Puppet Master has decided to go in a submarine. I believe I see the word Titan submersible on the side of it. [00:58:35] Speaker B: Oh, is that what it says? [00:58:37] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:58:37] Speaker B: Interesting. [00:58:39] Speaker A: It doesn't. But it could. [00:58:41] Speaker B: It could. [00:58:42] Speaker A: It looks like it very much could. And also the Fantastic Five go in a submarine too. Oh, wait, no, he's already in a submarine. Okay, okay. So he's in Titan submersible. [00:58:56] Speaker B: I see. [00:58:56] Speaker A: And they go in the fantastic marine. Fantastic. Fantastic car. Fantastomers. Fantastic car. Fantastic car. Because you see, it's a C at the end. So. Fan submarine. The fan submarine. The fan submarine, yes. Because I'm just picking where in the word the S is Fan submarine. [00:59:25] Speaker B: Fair. Fair. [00:59:26] Speaker A: Okay. And they go in the fan submarine and they just confront. They just ride right in. Like. [00:59:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:35] Speaker A: There's like Namor's like, greetings, surface fools. Now, when you read this. [00:59:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:42] Speaker A: Do you hear the Aquaman voice from Batman Brain of In the Bold? Because that is what I started to hear. [00:59:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:50] Speaker A: As I read this. [00:59:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:59:55] Speaker A: Fair like the entire time. Well, we find out that we've got a typical super villain gold Silver Age trap here they confront Namor. Sue is in a giant tank with a big octopus surrounding her. [01:00:13] Speaker B: Oh, man. [01:00:14] Speaker A: And the villain is like the villain, I guess he's the villain hero. He's a villain. [01:00:20] Speaker B: He's, he's, he's being used as a pawn. So he's villain. [01:00:24] Speaker A: This time I have but to draw the curtain to reveal your precious sue storm inside an air filled globe. A globule, globule, globule, globule, globule in my trophy tank guarded by the mightiest octopus on the planet. Whoa. [01:00:42] Speaker B: There's others out there, but they're not that mighty. [01:00:45] Speaker A: There's also a lot to unpack there, which I'm not going to put on my critic hat right now and just unpack that whole woman wrapped in an [01:00:55] Speaker B: octopus thing and that she was a trophy. [01:01:00] Speaker A: That's weird. [01:01:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:01] Speaker A: I don't know. Geez. [01:01:02] Speaker B: Namor be do better. Be better. [01:01:06] Speaker A: Well, I am going to say that [01:01:08] Speaker B: piece of trash, Dan. He see trash. [01:01:11] Speaker A: I did think this was a pretty sexist story, but also, of course it is. I mean, also, they, they call, they call it out later. So. [01:01:18] Speaker B: Yeah, okay. [01:01:19] Speaker A: I'm gonna be like, I mean, I, I. Yeah. Another challenge of what if I think is you are locked into the mores of the time. The stories. The what if is tied to is. So you are, you are locked into the very sexist. Like sue is the weakest one and she's opining for two men. And you know, you're, you're, you're sort of locked into that. And so if you're picking this as your first issue, you are locked into that whole scenario, which. [01:01:51] Speaker B: Yeah. And. And then you're also making the readers go, wow, do I want to read more of these? Because that seems pretty messed up where I thought we were a little more open minded than this. Can't they have a throuple? I mean, can't. Can't there be sue and Sue Anne Reed and. Yeah. Ed. They just get along like that. [01:02:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:02:22] Speaker B: I thought we were a little more. [01:02:23] Speaker A: Dad's name. What's the dad's name in. Well, in Land of the Lost Atlanta. [01:02:29] Speaker B: The, the guy that Will Ferrell plays. [01:02:32] Speaker A: Well, I was thinking of the car. The original. Yeah. I. I can't remember. [01:02:38] Speaker B: Well, anyway, you want him in the story too. Good lord. Dad [01:02:45] Speaker A: want a lot of people in the story. Then there's a sleeve stack and it's now my fantasy. So again, gosh, we can put together whoever. [01:02:54] Speaker B: Rogers. [01:02:58] Speaker A: And. Yeah. Buck Rogers and Ming the Merciless. [01:03:02] Speaker B: Wow. That's a. That's a whole lot to. That is a whole lot to unpack. [01:03:10] Speaker A: And then Queen singing in the background. The whole thing. [01:03:16] Speaker B: The whole thing. Wow. And you just. [01:03:20] Speaker A: Wow. [01:03:21] Speaker B: Just like. [01:03:23] Speaker A: I'm just. It's a medley. [01:03:24] Speaker B: It's a. [01:03:25] Speaker A: So it's a medley of My mind. Let's throw it all together and see what happens. It likes me. I kind of like the story. So. [01:03:33] Speaker B: That hilarious because it's, It's. [01:03:38] Speaker A: We will. Oh, well, it's his. The story. Like. Okay, so Namor extinguishes the torch instead of using water. [01:03:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:53] Speaker A: He does it with a sea sponge weapon. [01:03:56] Speaker B: Well, yeah, that makes the most sense. It's got. [01:04:00] Speaker A: Are they literally like in the ocean? [01:04:02] Speaker B: They are. [01:04:02] Speaker A: Put them in water. [01:04:04] Speaker B: I find interesting. I mean here's. It's. Yeah. He puts him out like. And he's like he can't reignite fast. But yes, they're. They're in the water but not in the water at the same time. [01:04:21] Speaker A: Yeah, they're. They're in like a layer inside the water. So it's not so like if he's in the water and he can swim in all of his people. Right. Can't breathe in the air. Right. They need to be in the water. Right, because he's a mutant. Right? That's. We learned that. [01:04:38] Speaker B: Yes, yes. He's. Yeah, he's got the ability. He's got gills, but he's got lungs too. I mean, he's got, he's got, he's got the ability to breathe both ways. [01:04:48] Speaker A: So why. [01:04:48] Speaker B: He's. By breathing. [01:04:49] Speaker A: So he creates like his own Fortress of Solitude in the water. [01:04:53] Speaker B: Yeah, he's. [01:04:54] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [01:04:56] Speaker B: He's like, he, he is a submariner. He, He. He can. He's like Superman, but, [01:05:08] Speaker A: well, he puts on some weird stuff on. On Ben Grimm and it like, grows over him. [01:05:15] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Gives him the green treatment, the goopy. [01:05:19] Speaker A: And then Spider man keeps fighting him and he helps Ben break out. And then now we've got Reed, Spidey, and Ben going after him. The torch is just down for the count here. Reed stretches into a giant stretchy cage and Spidey wraps up Namor and Ben goes for the octopus and throws him away. They get sue and it looks like everything is fine. And then the puppet master is watching this whole time, this whole time, the whole time, it does nothing. As you'll recall, there were Ben Grimm and Reed Richards little matte puppet doll things, but he does nothing. So he's like, they're more powerful than I thought. [01:06:04] Speaker B: Well, maybe he's just playing with the puppet dolls. It's like it. It's like when I sit there with all my action figures and I'm playing with them and they can do whatever I want. And I'm like. So the puppet master is doing the same thing with his little dolls there, his little action figures. He's. He's making them do whatever he thinks is. Is going to be fun. [01:06:26] Speaker A: Well, basically, he tells his puppet Namor to kill the Fantastic Five. [01:06:32] Speaker B: Oh, well, that's like. [01:06:34] Speaker A: I've got the ultimate weapon. It will release a gas which no living creature can withstand. And it fumes its fume, shall now destroy you all. I mean, that's not really a superpower or a weapon. That's just every human after 50 [01:06:49] Speaker B: having super gas. [01:06:51] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that could. Yeah. Destroy you all. [01:06:55] Speaker B: Yeah, that is pretty true. [01:06:57] Speaker A: Or just after a good chili, maybe. [01:07:01] Speaker B: Ah, hey, I had a good chili, but. And this one was real good. Wanna. Wanna know a little bit about it? Sure. [01:07:10] Speaker A: Well, as this is all about to happen, Namor's having doubts because the beautiful sue storm is there and the giant octopus is hurled out of the dome and goes and just conveniently attacks the Titan submersible. Now we know what happened. [01:07:28] Speaker B: Oh, man. It was all up to the puppet. [01:07:33] Speaker A: It wasn't bro design. It was a giant octopus. [01:07:35] Speaker B: Giant octopus took it out. [01:07:39] Speaker A: And the puppet master is commanding it to stay back. He quickly forms an octopus puppet. [01:07:45] Speaker B: Oh. [01:07:47] Speaker A: And tells it to stay back, but it doesn't work because the octopus has no brain, you see. [01:07:52] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. [01:07:55] Speaker A: And so now they close the globe. They keep the water from coming in. And now sue is torn. He's like, I can't let the two of you fight. Reed, you. You showed me that I don't need to be part of the Fantastic Five for it to work, because you didn't take me on the space ride. So I'm going with Namor [01:08:20] Speaker B: Tord. [01:08:22] Speaker A: So Namor puts her in a shell so she can breathe underwater, and she comes out, and then she can only breathe underwater. [01:08:31] Speaker B: What? [01:08:32] Speaker A: Because Namor is an idiot and forgets that he's a mutant that can breathe in both places. [01:08:40] Speaker B: What have I done? [01:08:42] Speaker A: Yes. So now sue can only swim in the ocean. That is, until she makes a deal with a giant octopus. [01:08:49] Speaker B: Ah. [01:08:50] Speaker A: To let her come out of the ocean and meet her prince. [01:08:54] Speaker B: Holy crap. Are you telling me that they did a whole entire. Sue Storm is the Little Mermaid. [01:09:02] Speaker A: She's got a jinglehopper. I believe that is what I'm telling you. [01:09:07] Speaker B: Holy cr. That's amazing. [01:09:09] Speaker A: Anyway, the Fantastic Four. [01:09:12] Speaker B: Crab that sings under the sea. [01:09:15] Speaker A: No. Oh. So she goes back. Not in my world. [01:09:21] Speaker B: Oh. [01:09:21] Speaker A: And the Fantastic Five go back. They are all. Reed is sad, Siri is gone, and the Watcher's like, there are worlds within worlds, worlds which exist side by side with your own. And in each of them, men and women must make choices. Choices will affect their own destinies and perhaps that of the universe. I know. For I am the Watcher. [01:09:51] Speaker B: What if Sue Storm was the Little Mermaid and had to get her? [01:09:56] Speaker A: I mean, this story is, like, crazy sexist. It is pretty bad. I. I'm. [01:10:02] Speaker B: Yeah. From. [01:10:06] Speaker A: It's. [01:10:07] Speaker B: It's like, at the beginning, it's not so bad, but halfway through, it takes a turn, and then the rest of it is like, wow. Okay. You just. You. You've. Yeah. It has now become an obsession. At the end of this story, you [01:10:24] Speaker A: know, those women, once they make up their mind, you can't convince them otherwise. They are irrational beasts. They are emotional beasts. [01:10:33] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [01:10:33] Speaker A: They will just go and. And do crazy things. Barrical. Yeah. [01:10:39] Speaker B: Yeah. No, this is. It's bonkers. [01:10:46] Speaker A: Well, I mean, you know, it. It was here. I mean, look, it was better than the Wonder Woman Christmas Story. [01:10:55] Speaker B: Yeah. That's true. [01:10:57] Speaker A: 100. There. There is. That it is officially. I'm giving it the Dan. It's less sexist than the Wonder Woman Christmas story we read Seal of approval. [01:11:08] Speaker B: There you go. Nice. I mean, nobody got fridged in this. They just got put in a shell and can't go back to the land. [01:11:15] Speaker A: I mean, there was only. Well, I guess there was submission though. So I'm taking. [01:11:19] Speaker B: Yeah, see, she was. She was. She was worked over by the puppet master who was using Namor and he was a puppet. And then she's used to get to. To fall in. It's just obsession than that, the new movie that's out. Obsession where she's brought into his world and she can't leave because now she's stuck and waiting. And it doesn't matter that she had a life before because now she's going to climb into the shell and be a shell herself. [01:11:49] Speaker A: Well, we. We have some back banner. [01:11:53] Speaker B: Yes. [01:11:55] Speaker A: We have an advertisement for the 3D man. [01:11:58] Speaker B: Oh, the 3D man. [01:11:59] Speaker A: Mighty Marvel makes the 1950s come alive again. When I was a kid, I had an issue of the Hulk called Whatever happened to the 3D man? [01:12:07] Speaker B: Yeah, what happened to him? Because he's got a move. He's telling Fonta to move over. [01:12:13] Speaker A: Well, we'd have to pull out that Hulk issue and review it. Yeah, I think I may still have it. [01:12:19] Speaker B: I want to see it. [01:12:21] Speaker A: I imagine it's pretty torn up. So we get a lot of back matter where Roy Thomas lets us know that he created this whole idea that he loved working with Stan Lee. He was basically Stan Lee's bestest boy. [01:12:36] Speaker B: Best boy. [01:12:38] Speaker A: He says he hung out with Stan as more than everybody but Stan's own brother, Larry Lover. He lets us know that he. He said, first off, please don't call them imaginary stories. And he lets us know how much he hates the whole idea. He says our competitors years before had come up with their own answer by doing so called imaginary stories. Many older readers deplored them, though of course they were hardly the ones the tales were written for. Me, I rather liked the idea, at least at first. Of course, when every second or third story became an imaginary tale, its newness and appeal paled to me, if not to newer, younger readers. So, yeah, I could see that happening too. And there are some really infamous imaginary stories, like the day that Lois Lane became an African American woman. [01:13:35] Speaker B: Yeah, that was. That's an interesting. That's an interesting book. [01:13:41] Speaker A: Yeah. So sometimes the imaginary stories weren't well received for a lot of Reasons. Oh, yeah, fair. But, you know, there's that. I think he is kind of doing the same thing here. Well, it's not the same thing. It's a different. [01:13:59] Speaker B: How dare. [01:14:00] Speaker A: Instead of just saying, you know, here's an imaginary story where Lois Lane and Superman get married and they grow up, and it's the future, and we don't really know if this future is happening or not, we go back to the past here in these stories, we find a point in history and then we say where it diverged. Again, I think that, again, the really tough thing here is how much history do you give the reader in the book and how much do you make us read to get that history? I. I think I do think later. What if issues do a better job balancing that? [01:14:34] Speaker B: Giving you, like, they don't snippet. [01:14:36] Speaker A: They don't need to give you a lot. [01:14:37] Speaker B: Yeah, just enough. Yeah. You know, I mean, like, this first issue, like you said, it basically almost a third of it is that. That issue of Spider man to get you up to speed, to let you know where they're going, where they're. Where they're at and where they're going. And it's like, okay. And then it kicks off. [01:15:03] Speaker A: Well, and I appreciate, you know, I, as a comics reader, pseudo historian myself, like, I appreciate Roy's, like, adherence to the craft. Right. Like, I appreciate the notion of him editing this and really letting us know what issue it happened, because then I don't have to speculate. However, one of the fun things about comics, too, when a story like this happens is to sort of speculate where it fell in the history. And so we don't. We don't get to do that because they tell us automatically. So, I mean, I. I appreciate that. It's. It's a. I mean, the stories, it. It is a. The story is definitely a fixture of the story that it inserts itself into. Right. All the tropes that existed in spider man number one and in Fantastic Four, 13, 14, that era are still here. [01:15:58] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [01:15:58] Speaker A: In this story, we don't have an empowered Sue Storm yet. We don't have. I do like the subtle touches on Spider man not learning to become a scientist. Yeah, the art's fine. [01:16:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:16:13] Speaker A: The art's not distracting. So there is too much text in this story. [01:16:17] Speaker B: It is a lot of text. I'm not going to lie. When you said it was like, it was a longer book than you expected, I was like, okay, it can't be that bad. [01:16:25] Speaker A: And I. [01:16:26] Speaker B: Honestly, as I was reading it, I Could feel myself dragging into a point where I think my eyes closed and I almost, like fell into my laptop. [01:16:36] Speaker A: Yeah, well. And you see this thing? If you fall asleep with this. [01:16:40] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. That's why I opted to go with the digital version. So if I drop it on myself or if I fall into it, it doesn't hurt as bad because I've done that before with one of those books and I, I think that's why my nose is crooked and I snore. [01:16:55] Speaker A: So there you go. Yeah. So what's your. So it says this cover date was 77. I thought this came out in 79. [01:17:04] Speaker B: That's what I was saying. [01:17:05] Speaker A: It's like, it's, it's early 77. Yeah, it is earlier than I'm saying I thought. Why did you say Greg is correct? I'm just trying to figure out where I got 79 in my head now from time. Literally right here, 2-7-77. I must have been looking at one of the other issues that could be true. And so. Oh, I think I was looking at the Rick Jones one, actually. [01:17:27] Speaker B: Rick Jones, yeah. [01:17:29] Speaker A: 77. So you're right. They'd probably. I don't think they have Kirby yet or Kirby back, so they'll get Kirby back for some things later. But yeah, I mean, it's interesting this magazine. This magazine. Magazine survives the implosion. [01:17:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, people, I, I think genuinely people do like a little fantastical story around some real, like the historical notes of the thing that they're reading. So, I mean, yes, it's, it's a, it's. We've already know this story, but let's change it up enough to make it interesting again. Let's put a little flavor on it. You know, some things need a little gravy. And that's what I think Roy Thomas is doing here, is giving you a little bit of gravy on your potatoes. [01:18:14] Speaker A: Well, we got two Omnibi over here. Oh, Omnibi. So that's. I'm gonna set them down. I still got Booster Gold over here. [01:18:22] Speaker B: The four guys. [01:18:23] Speaker A: I, I, I, Yeah, put him away. [01:18:26] Speaker B: You can't put them away. You gotta keep reading that, Booster. [01:18:29] Speaker A: I'll put them away. [01:18:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I know, I know. To make room for Dom to buy. [01:18:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So it was a story. [01:18:40] Speaker B: It was good. It wasn't perfect, but it was good. It was a good way to start it off. [01:18:45] Speaker A: You got. If, if it was 50 cents [01:18:52] Speaker B: and [01:18:52] Speaker A: all the other books were 35 cents or 25 cents, would you pick up this book? [01:19:01] Speaker B: I'm Sorry. I was sneezing. I was sneezing and I was sneezing at you. Would I, Would you pick up this book? Yeah, I'd pick it up. I'd pick it up and I'd read it and I'd say, wow, what a. What kind of twists and turns did they take me on in this story? It's like reading two books smashed together like a, like a peanut butter side, a jelly side. And then you got something else in the inside, which is the marshmallow fluff, another thing that goes inside there. And I don't know why you'd have jelly in there as well. [01:19:33] Speaker A: Let's. Let's see what else was. Let's see what else was on sale here. [01:19:38] Speaker B: There was nothing else. This is it. [01:19:40] Speaker A: This is your five book special. Well, I know you wouldn't have picked this up if you had limited options because X Men103 came out the same week. [01:19:50] Speaker B: I, you know, I, if I was, if I was a kid. Well, I mean, I, I was a kid at this time, but I was a young, A young brand new child. There's no way I would have bought either of them. And the books that I was reading were based on what my, my dad and my uncles were giving me and they would have bought this. [01:20:09] Speaker A: Well, I'm just saying, bottling what you like. Well, if you're a kid here. I just think so here's. Oof. [01:20:18] Speaker B: Oof. What. What I see on next. [01:20:19] Speaker A: So Marvel Team. Well, Marvel Team up was out at the time too, and it was Marvel Team Up. Spider man and the Incredible Hulk. [01:20:26] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [01:20:27] Speaker A: The same month as they. [01:20:28] Speaker B: They do Spider man and the Fantastic Four. [01:20:31] Speaker A: Yeah, we get a later issue of the Defenders or not a later issue. We. Oh, this is 44 we now. It's not early. I don't even know if we got this far. I don't think we got this far. Helpless before the strangest powers of all fighting. The secret of red. Something red. [01:20:52] Speaker B: Something red. [01:20:54] Speaker A: Raha. Red Ra. So with a lineup of. I don't think anybody was picking that book up. With a lineup of Hulk, Valkyrie, Nighthawk, Power man and Red Guardian. No. Written by one Jerry Conway. [01:21:10] Speaker B: Oh, well, I'm sure it's probably really good. [01:21:11] Speaker A: I definitely read this. One pencil. Oh. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. What? [01:21:16] Speaker B: Right. [01:21:17] Speaker A: Defenders 140. Holy crap. Let me get distracted for a second. Defenders 44. Guess. The pencil and the inker, both super famous. You would never imagine them working together. [01:21:30] Speaker B: I, I can't. I couldn't tell you who I, I'll [01:21:33] Speaker A: give you a hint. [01:21:35] Speaker B: The. [01:21:35] Speaker A: The penciler never did work for Marvel pretty much after this only DC exclusive passed away within the last year and a half. D.C. writer and penciler. [01:21:50] Speaker B: I. I don't know. [01:21:52] Speaker A: Created Rocket Raccoon and Lobo. [01:21:58] Speaker B: It's in the back of my head. [01:22:01] Speaker A: And worked on Legion. [01:22:03] Speaker B: I know this is right there because. [01:22:04] Speaker A: And Justice League. [01:22:06] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. We talked about this during the. Yes. [01:22:09] Speaker A: Keith Giffen was the penciler. [01:22:11] Speaker B: Jeez. [01:22:12] Speaker A: Klaus Janssen was the anchor. [01:22:14] Speaker B: Wow. That's an amazing pair up. But I. It's not. [01:22:21] Speaker A: What do you think Klaus did with all that line work that Keith was doing? [01:22:24] Speaker B: Oh, wow. [01:22:25] Speaker A: I wonder if Keith was doing the line work back then. Yeah. In addition to this, you have an issue of Super Villain team up number 10. There are a lot of team up books for Marvel at this time. [01:22:40] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:22:42] Speaker A: Man called Nova number six. Interesting. Who is writing that? Marv Wolfman. Okay. [01:22:51] Speaker B: Go figure. [01:22:54] Speaker A: And Fantastic4 Number 179, writer Roy Thomas and Jerry Conway. Yeah. [01:23:05] Speaker B: Talk about a team up. [01:23:07] Speaker A: Yeah. So anyway, I'm just. We have. We of course know who was doing X Men at the time. [01:23:12] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:23:13] Speaker A: You've got Claremont and Cockrum still. So the dynamic duo. And oh, we've got Peter Parker. That was the reprint book, right? [01:23:23] Speaker B: I think so. [01:23:27] Speaker A: Was that a reprint book? It's got Jim Shooter as the writer and Jerry Conway as writers. [01:23:34] Speaker B: Interesting. [01:23:35] Speaker A: I thought. I thought Spectacular was a reprint book. Maybe it was a reprint book later. [01:23:41] Speaker B: Maybe. [01:23:42] Speaker A: Well, anyway, I'm sure there are a lot more books out that month, but [01:23:46] Speaker B: a lot of interesting stuff out that month. [01:23:49] Speaker A: That's. We. We do it for DC all the time. Because I actually have the DC books. But dig a little bit into the marvelfandom.com and see if I could see a couple of things. That cover date, technically it says it came out in 76 to cover date 2-11-77, but 11-11-76 release. Yeah, just pulled that out on the releases too. Not just looking at the month, but looking at the week. I think I was looking at the month. Looks like Spider Woman 32, Inhumans number nine, Eternals number eight. I feel like has a. It's a little bit better against that competition. Yeah. Dr. Strange 21. That must have been when Wolfman was making the universe crazy for Doctor Strange. [01:24:35] Speaker B: Right, of course. Yeah. [01:24:36] Speaker A: It came out against Amazing spider man number 165 though. We got a Falcon story. And in Cap. No, It's Roy Thomas. Dr. Strange too. Roy Thomas writing every book that week. [01:24:52] Speaker B: Jesus. [01:24:52] Speaker A: Wow. [01:24:53] Speaker B: Yeah, he was on fire. Apparently, he was the man to be writing. [01:25:02] Speaker A: Well, there you go. Well, little venture into history, we've been on for a long time. Probably time for us to wrap this up. [01:25:10] Speaker B: Wrapping it up. [01:25:12] Speaker A: But any do you haven't. Let's see. We've promoted a bunch of things. [01:25:17] Speaker B: Yes, we have promoted a bunch of things. Come see me at the Retro Emporium in downtown Kent historic area, where there [01:25:27] Speaker A: will be no Sasquatches, because there are Sasquatch. [01:25:31] Speaker B: Now we have. We want him to be president. Dan. See the new stickers be. Be one with the way. [01:25:40] Speaker A: Now, there's also an important announcement we will get. We're going to give you a link to a Kickstarter. [01:25:49] Speaker B: Yes. [01:25:50] Speaker A: It has not launched. [01:25:52] Speaker B: Yes. [01:25:52] Speaker A: But if you go to that link. Yes, you can have it notify you when it does launch. [01:25:57] Speaker B: Yes. [01:25:58] Speaker A: It is an absolutely beautiful book. [01:26:00] Speaker B: Yes. [01:26:02] Speaker A: Do you know what that book's called? [01:26:04] Speaker B: I. I don't know. [01:26:05] Speaker A: Written. Written by one Travis Webb. [01:26:07] Speaker B: Tell me the title. [01:26:09] Speaker A: Delight Me by one Brett Wadelli. [01:26:12] Speaker B: Yes. [01:26:13] Speaker A: I'm very excited to read this book. It's called what if Alex was a Cyborg? [01:26:22] Speaker B: What if Alex is cyborg? That's it. That's all you need to know. Oh, wow. That is, that's. That, that's. [01:26:29] Speaker A: I want to note. I said a cyborg, not cyborg. I don't want to be sued by Warner Brothers. [01:26:34] Speaker B: Yes. A cyborg, not d. Cyborg, not cyborg. I, I, I, I stand behind the title. I think it's good. Solid. Yeah. No, okay. [01:26:43] Speaker A: What if Alex was a cyborg? What if Was a cyborg coming to you soon? Now just get sued by Disney because I use the what if title. [01:26:53] Speaker B: No, no, you just, you were asking a question, not using it as a title. [01:26:58] Speaker A: Okay, that's fair. [01:27:00] Speaker B: Alex is a cyborg question mark. [01:27:04] Speaker A: Who had what if the Hulk had the brain? Bruce Banner. Well, we're going to try another what if book next week. [01:27:10] Speaker B: We should do that one next week. What if. [01:27:13] Speaker A: You want a second Roy Thomas scripted what if book? [01:27:17] Speaker B: I'm wondering what he's going to do with the whole. Are you sure? [01:27:21] Speaker A: Are you sure about that? [01:27:22] Speaker B: I am sure. [01:27:23] Speaker A: You literally just said I was falling asleep reading this one because it had so much text. [01:27:29] Speaker B: I, I think I could handle it. It's. [01:27:30] Speaker A: It's the. [01:27:31] Speaker B: It's the Incredible Hulk. [01:27:33] Speaker A: We are. We are not starting this. We are not doing the second issue. [01:27:36] Speaker B: Why not? [01:27:38] Speaker A: I'm gonna pick a different one right now. [01:27:39] Speaker B: Oh, boo, listeners. You, you write in. You tell us what you think you Give us a five star and then you tell Dan that he should let, let us read that Incredible Hulk. [01:27:51] Speaker A: No, I'm not doing that. We're doing what if Number 12. [01:28:00] Speaker B: Number 12. Fine. [01:28:01] Speaker A: What if Rick Jones. Rick Jones had become the Hulk. I'm gonna get to learn all about Rick Jones. We're gonna get to learn all about the Hulk. It's gonna be great. [01:28:12] Speaker B: Okay, fair enough. [01:28:16] Speaker A: I, I, it's gonna be great. [01:28:18] Speaker B: It's a, it's a Hulk book. But it's not the Hulk book Greg wants to read. Yeah, I'm sad Hulk. Walk away with a backpack and hear the piano play in the background. [01:28:30] Speaker A: As much as I love Roy Thomas and as many Roy Thomas DC books as I have, I am not reading another what if scripted Roy Thomas book next week. [01:28:40] Speaker B: Fine, fine. [01:28:41] Speaker A: Maybe we go back to number two later. But I, there's. It's just not happening. I don't have a spare hour and a half to read a comic book. [01:28:50] Speaker B: Oh, come on, Dan. Do you know what's gonna happen? You're gonna grab this next book that you chose, this Rick Jones book, and it's gonna be two hours of reading. [01:29:02] Speaker A: Look, I could have, I could have done what if the Avengers fought the Kree Square Roll War without Rick Jones, and then we really both would have had no clue what we were talking about. At least I do know the general origin of the Hulk. [01:29:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:29:18] Speaker A: So we can, we, we should be able to adequately discuss that. [01:29:23] Speaker B: We can get to another one. [01:29:25] Speaker A: Well, fun things. Fun things coming out in the future and do another what if. We are. I, we're both. You're reading out digital version. We're both reading out of the what if original Mar Is omnibus right now. [01:29:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:29:40] Speaker A: So if you want to read along. I don't think you can get the hard print version. We were discussing that last week. I was priced out. You can? Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, you can get it. It's just. It's not Cheap Seas anymore. [01:29:55] Speaker B: It is not unless you have an extra, you know, fat stack of cash just sitting there in a bag and you want to, you want to spend it. Yeah. [01:30:08] Speaker A: However, the digital version was not that expensive. So you could, you can read these issues on Marvel Universe or whatever it is, or you can grab the digital version. Or as Greg pointed out, you could scour your local comic shops to find out if you can get it. Just. I, I can't imagine the what if Rick Jones was the Hulk. Issue 12 is a high value book. So [01:30:36] Speaker B: scour. [01:30:37] Speaker A: You could look, buy those, buy those on the ebays or something and. Or the whatnots or the offer ups or the. Or just go to a comic shop [01:30:47] Speaker B: because you could get it. You could have a real adventure and. And try to try to get it from somebody on Facebook marketplace and never know what's going to happen. Are you going to get the book or you're going to lose a kidney? [01:30:59] Speaker A: That's true. [01:31:00] Speaker B: I mean, that's. [01:31:03] Speaker A: I can buy it for $2.99 with $6.24 of shipping. [01:31:07] Speaker B: Get it. [01:31:10] Speaker A: I didn't know there were what if key issues. There are what if key issues. There must be first appearances of things and they become in part of the Marvel universe, maybe. [01:31:17] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. Oh, hey, this idea that spurned this thing turned into the other thing. I'm trying to find the date what [01:31:27] Speaker A: if Comics Lot 41 Shots, Issue 41. Galactus 12X Men. $50 are best offer to get 40 comics. 40 comics buy all sorts of what ifs. Well, there you go. Well, now I know. So what if, what if, what if, what if, what if, what if, what if? [01:31:49] Speaker B: So many what ifs. [01:31:51] Speaker A: I have some what ifs. Not very much from the first series, though. They're all from later. Well, anyway, that's it. I think we should wrap this one up. We love it. Yes. Come back, please. We'll listen to some more what if. You will listen to me stumble through talking about Bronze Age Marvel comics. And Greg's here, too. [01:32:14] Speaker B: Yes, I'm here too. Thanks, Dan. I'm here, too. [01:32:18] Speaker A: You're welcome. [01:32:19] Speaker B: I. I'm glad to be here with [01:32:21] Speaker A: you on your journey. More to the table when we discuss Marvel Bronze Age. [01:32:28] Speaker B: You thought I would bring more to the table since you actually read a lot of the. [01:32:35] Speaker A: But then I picked the one book that only refers to the Silver Age, so I give you no ammunition at all. [01:32:40] Speaker B: Give me nothing. That's fine. That's fine. I'm okay with it. I know you wanted to. It's like Superman with the script tonight. I get it. It's how it goes. [01:32:51] Speaker A: Well, on that note. Yes. We're out. See you next time. [01:32:59] Speaker B: By.