Funny Book Forensics 284 Bi Phallicia

[00:00:12] Speaker A: Think we're having a staring match from different houses? [00:00:15] Speaker B: Are we? No. How come? [00:00:18] Speaker A: Who blink? Well, because we were seeing who would blink first after you said, wait to start recording. [00:00:23] Speaker B: Oh, no. And I put myself on mute because I had to cough. [00:00:26] Speaker A: You did put yourself on mute. Okay. That's what was going on. I was starting. Are we having a staring contest? [00:00:32] Speaker B: I thought you were going to just jump into the intro. [00:00:36] Speaker A: Jump into the intro on Funny book forensics. You're home for comic book analysis. [00:00:44] Speaker B: Hey. [00:00:44] Speaker A: And dissection. That's right. That's right. That's us. [00:00:49] Speaker B: That's right. [00:00:49] Speaker A: Here on the spoiler verse where Kathubu comes to destroy everything. [00:00:55] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:00:59] Speaker A: And you know what's not going on? [00:01:01] Speaker B: What? [00:01:03] Speaker A: John isn't here. [00:01:04] Speaker B: Well, that's typical. I mean, it's not typical, but it is. [00:01:10] Speaker A: Say, I would expect the spoiler verse, with its tentacles everywhere, to reach at some point. Forensics. [00:01:18] Speaker B: True, true. I would say Kenrick will probably show. [00:01:21] Speaker A: Up before John, but we transcend the spoiler verse. And that's why you come here for our analysis. Because while the spoiler verse spoils new TV shows and spoils new comics and gets you the best interviews with comic creators, we find obscure Kickstarter Comics and have fun talking about them. That's right. That's what we do. [00:01:46] Speaker B: And endless stuff in our boxes and stuff like that. [00:01:50] Speaker A: But we do do it all well, just because we can talk about whatever we want. We're not bound by Cthulhu's tentacles. [00:01:57] Speaker B: No, we're. Unless. Unless you want to. [00:02:03] Speaker A: Mean. That was the last few issues that we covered with midnight. [00:02:07] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. Yeah. [00:02:10] Speaker A: The God Garden and the Perdition pit. [00:02:14] Speaker B: We had some doors, a ride or die moment of like, dude, we're hitting these issues. We're finishing them. [00:02:22] Speaker A: But we made it to the end and we did. It was about as interesting reading those books as my dog finds me interesting by sitting here watching me podcast and talk aimlessly into a computer with nobody on the other side. She's fascinated by this. [00:02:38] Speaker B: She's like, what are you doing? Why are you doing? Why are you doing? [00:02:43] Speaker A: Time for a walk. Yeah, she's in fact, right here. Like, let's go. And she's just going to have to wait an hour now. [00:02:51] Speaker B: Yeah, why are we not walking? Why are we not eating the food? That's what we do. [00:02:57] Speaker A: She thinks. She thinks it's time. It may be time to go outside, but we'll keep a heads up on. Yeah, because this is great radio. [00:03:05] Speaker B: This is your dog will wait. And we will talk about. What are we talking about today, Dan? [00:03:12] Speaker A: Well, we are talking about glitter vipers. [00:03:15] Speaker B: Whoa, sounds dangerous. They sound dangerous. [00:03:20] Speaker A: They sound is. So I picked up a book on Kickstarter by Joe Glass and Katie Fleming. And Joe Glass ran the Kickstarter. I think Joe had an active one recently. I know I picked up another one, but I don't know if he has any active Kickstarters right now. It's probably something I should research before the podcast. [00:03:45] Speaker B: Okay, we will, we'll let it slide this time. [00:03:50] Speaker A: But after all the Midnighter stuff, and we discussed a lot about violence in comics and where violence might be appropriate and especially violence in relation to the queer community. Right. Like, why does it necessarily queer character have to act so violently toward oppression? And I think my biggest criticism of the Midnighter series was a sense the Midnighter character. Here's one thing where it was very consistent, right. The Midnighter character over time has been ultraviolent. So this isn't a secret. Right. It wasn't a change for the character to be ultraviolent, but we didn't see a lot of justifications for that violence in the book. [00:04:32] Speaker B: No. [00:04:33] Speaker A: Right. It's just like violence for violence sakes. Yeah. I'm attacked. You attacked me, I'm going to be violent. It was like kind of like dog. [00:04:41] Speaker B: Response as we're talking about dog stuff earlier. But when my dog freaks out about stuff because she's in a cone right now, you touch her, she turns and freaks out and tries to bite you because it's a reactive type thing. That is so much how Midnighter did his business. It was all reactive. [00:05:07] Speaker A: Yeah. The big thing too. I would say it was reactive. But also, if you recall correctly, and I think this is a scene that probably relates most of the book we're about to read, there was a scene in a bar and it was a group of Russians, and midnighter chooses to go to Russia, and one of the Russians makes a homophobic comment and midnighter grabs him by the nose, if I. [00:05:30] Speaker B: Remember correctly, finger in the nose. [00:05:33] Speaker A: It just seemed out of place. Right. Like he was very much the aggressor. [00:05:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:40] Speaker A: And so it just seemed like they were just sticking it in there to get a clap. And I think we're going to read something that's very different. [00:05:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:05:59] Speaker A: I just found a fun, bleeding cool story about Joe Glass. Apparently he was one of the first creators to get vaccinated against COVID-19 There you go. Cool. [00:06:11] Speaker B: Topical. [00:06:12] Speaker A: Yeah. And then they kind of joke, they said, well, that may be not be true. We're not sure, but he's got to be one of the youngest creators to get know first. But anyway, a lot of can. If you want to learn more about Joe Glass, you can go to JoeglassComics Co. UK, and it has a nice, pretty gallery of his comics, all the comics. And we'll probably mention that at the end, too, or at least try to remember to put it in our notes in a couple of weeks when I post this, okay? Oh, wait. I said a couple of weeks when. [00:06:45] Speaker B: I post this, like today when it's been posted. [00:06:50] Speaker A: Right. Let me do it. That's what I mean. That's how this works. I thought, right now we're Joe Rogan. Everything goes up. Right now. [00:06:58] Speaker B: I thought as soon as we were done talking, you put it up. [00:07:01] Speaker A: That's what you tell me right now it's live. And then we put it up. [00:07:04] Speaker B: Yeah, you told me this was all live. [00:07:08] Speaker A: Yeah, I got a big staff here. The dog, she's very good at posting podcasts. [00:07:13] Speaker B: Okay, that's what I thought. Because why am I paying you gratuitous amounts of money? All the money. [00:07:20] Speaker A: I am getting so rich right now, it's not even funny. You were just discussing that. Monopoly Money podcast. [00:07:27] Speaker B: Monopoly money. But, I mean, of course it's gratuitous amounts. [00:07:31] Speaker A: Well, sure, when I'm a project manager of Overcast comics. [00:07:35] Speaker B: No, you're not. [00:07:39] Speaker A: That brings you up. Overcast comics. That brings you, I'm sorry, I'm, like. [00:07:50] Speaker B: I have to preface, no, you're not. Because just because you say it doesn't make it real, Dan. Just because you say it doesn't make it real. Starlight Comics. [00:08:01] Speaker A: You're very afraid of your co author, and that's respectable. Because I'm afraid of him. Know, it's. I can't even joke. And you're afraid of Travis. [00:08:20] Speaker B: It's not being afraid. It's because I had a heart to heart conversation about making drastic changes to things without conversations, and I don't want this to be a, did you have a conversation with somebody and make a change? [00:08:41] Speaker A: The assumption that anything I say on this podcast is true, besides what I say about the comics, you should always take that with a grain of salt. [00:08:49] Speaker B: You know, I I know I could, but I don't know about anyone else listening within earshot. [00:08:55] Speaker A: Travis isn't listening to this show. [00:08:58] Speaker B: He might. He's everywhere. [00:09:01] Speaker A: He's got, Travis is a big fan of wandering dialogue. [00:09:07] Speaker B: Oh, God, he's calling in right now. [00:09:10] Speaker A: Is he really? [00:09:11] Speaker B: No, Dan, it's not a speakerphone. [00:09:25] Speaker A: Anyway, incredibly bored. [00:09:28] Speaker B: I'm eating the Crab ragoon. [00:09:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Travis is your co author and co. [00:09:33] Speaker B: Host of Narrative Gunslingers and co author of Starlight Comic. [00:09:40] Speaker A: And so, yeah, big, big. You know, getting into this, too, I think I've always been fascinated by independent labels, but I'm also really interested in mainstream. I mean, the bulk of what I buy, admittedly, and I've shared this several times, are DC Comics. Right? I love buying superhero comics. I've always loved buying superhero comics. And I don't see an issue with that. No pun intended. I did not mean to do that. And I didn't even get a good laugh from you. But at the same time. [00:10:19] Speaker B: Now you got me. [00:10:21] Speaker A: Okay, see, nothing I intend to be funny is ever funny. And then I could just say something. Yeah, basically, I'm worse from Star Trek, right? And anything he says that's not funny is funny. [00:10:35] Speaker B: And then. [00:10:39] Speaker A: This is why I need you here. Well, I was going to make a point. [00:10:43] Speaker B: Yes, your point. [00:10:45] Speaker A: And that point was, I have always been a big fan of big mainstream comics. Right. I like comic books. This is why I do this and I keep reading them. I also like independent books and side stories and people that want to be creative. And what I get frustrated about with the indie world sort of, is this notion that, oh, well, I read indie comics with my. You can't call them Skinny lates anymore. Right. So help me, what would they be? Latte? [00:11:16] Speaker B: I don't know what they're called because I don't drink them. I hardly drink coffee anymore. [00:11:21] Speaker A: Well, it's like I've got my kale in my non fat latte and my indie books. And these indie books are far superior to the trash you're reading, Dan, and I'm not even going to engage you on that level. I bring out a book and I say, hey, this book is well written. And, oh, well, it's a DC imprint. It can't be like, well, that's just not true. I mean, these companies hire the best writers often, right? [00:11:51] Speaker B: Often, yes. [00:11:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Those best writers won't always write for them. [00:11:56] Speaker B: True. [00:11:56] Speaker A: But oftentimes that happens. So we should expect that sometimes these big companies put out great books. Yeah, that should happen. Right? It should happen. It would make sense that good books would come out of big companies. And if you like to read superhero books, you're probably going to see some good superhero books out of big companies. That makes sense. [00:12:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:22] Speaker A: I would also expect that writers want to take off on their own. And then there's a lot of up and coming writers that haven't been noticed by the big companies. And they also can write and tell stories and make something fun. [00:12:34] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:12:35] Speaker A: And both of these worlds can coexist. You don't have to be like an indie guy or a big company guy. You can like both. [00:12:42] Speaker B: This is true. [00:12:43] Speaker A: I like comics. [00:12:46] Speaker B: I fall into that category of, like, I toggle back and forth between the kind of stuff that I grew up with and the storylines that I like. But then also I jump back into these, the love letter comics, the comics that are somebody's love letter to whatever it is that they feel like they have to get out or the story that they know that isn't going to get made the way that they feel like it needs to get made in the mainstream, so they make it themselves. And I thoroughly enjoy reading those stories because if you don't read them, I guess it's like if you don't seek them out, then you'll never know they exist. Right. [00:13:33] Speaker A: Well, and I think one of the fun things to think about, too, is you get a much smaller print run if you're doing, say, a Kickstarter. And when we say much smaller. So if we're comparing, like, a typical DC book these days doing about a 30,000 book print run. So not huge. It's not like it's gigantic. Issue four just ended on Kickstarter. Right. Of Starlight. And how many backers did you end up with? [00:14:05] Speaker B: I think at total, I think just about 236 backers. [00:14:13] Speaker A: And obviously you'll print more than 236, but let's say you print 500, that's a substantially smaller print run than 30,000. [00:14:22] Speaker B: Yeah, of course. [00:14:24] Speaker A: But the people that are choosing to buy this and grow as your audience are extremely loyal. [00:14:31] Speaker B: This is true. [00:14:33] Speaker A: And you're always going to have that audience of 250, hopefully by the time you all get to the end of the book, say three to 500 people. Right. And you'll build that audience and they'll come back. So it's a very different type of audience building than saying, just putting out 7000 Batman books every month and hoping. [00:14:53] Speaker B: That 4000 of them get bought and 3000 don't get returned. [00:14:58] Speaker A: Right. And that's a lot of direct markets have quelled the print runs too. Right. That's one of the reasons the print runs are down is because people are ordering the books ahead of time or comic stores have a predictive audience for that book. [00:15:11] Speaker B: Right. [00:15:12] Speaker A: And in the same sense, all you're doing on a Kickstarter is trying to build a predictive audience. [00:15:16] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Either predictive audience based off of previous sales and or kind of knowing if friend a likes this. Friend B might like this. Hey, friend A, talk to Friend B. [00:15:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I think you might have called it a pyramid scheme before the podcast. [00:15:41] Speaker B: No, I was talking about how the Kickstarter marketing could be in it. Mine. But just like how you see that kind of. Help me, help you help me. [00:16:02] Speaker A: I'm just teasing you though, Greg. But even if it's not a pyramid schemE. But yeah, what if it is? [00:16:10] Speaker B: The. I'm going to mess up the thing. The Zulily? Not Zulily. Whatever. The clothing company, man, I messed it up. [00:16:22] Speaker A: You're going to have to be about clothing. [00:16:26] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's the documentary about the pyramid schemes. I watched that. [00:16:33] Speaker A: Zumbas? [00:16:34] Speaker B: No, not Zumbas. Although they're super comfortable. And I bought them. No, it was like, most recently, it was like Lululemon. Yes. No, Lulu. Lulu something. [00:16:47] Speaker A: Lululemon. Zululemon. Zulu. Lemon. Lily. [00:16:51] Speaker B: Yeah, something like that. I don't. Was whatever that. No. [00:16:58] Speaker A: Doterra. [00:16:59] Speaker B: No. [00:17:00] Speaker A: Well, there was that company around here that came out of Washington that sold all the scented oils and crap. [00:17:04] Speaker B: Wasn't. That's not those. It was close, but they were like, basically they're housed out of California, but a majority of their sales reps were from the Pacific Northwest because it started with two ladies that lived here that were like, oh, I like these clothes, I want to be a sales rep. And then they got all their friends to talk it up on social media, and then all of a sudden there was like this big rush for all that. [00:17:35] Speaker A: But isn't that the goal of marketing? [00:17:37] Speaker B: Yeah, it is the goal of marketing. It's the goal of marketing. [00:17:41] Speaker A: Ideally, you want a good product to go with that, right? [00:17:44] Speaker B: Yeah, but I think if the product degrades over a short, you should grow the business as the marketing grows, not degrade the business as the marketing grows. [00:17:55] Speaker A: Right. And that's why overcast comics is hiring me as their project manager. We've circled. [00:18:00] Speaker B: You can keep saying it, but it doesn't make it true. [00:18:04] Speaker A: Well, it's just me wanting badly for you all to be big enough to have a project manager. Well, it's appreciated, but that's what it is, right? And maybe you won't get that big, but ultimately, as these groups build audiences. This is where I'm joking with you. Right? Though? You don't think it's funny, the project manager part, but the idea that you built this marketing, it's not a pyramid scheme, but it's friends buying Friends books. But ultimately, if you get enough referrals, like any other business, to Your great work, then that's going to grow your market. [00:18:36] Speaker B: Yeah, it makes sense, but I think more intricate than that. [00:18:51] Speaker A: Well, you're saying it's more nuanced than my simple three minute explanation on a podcast. Yeah, I would hope so, because you're a master at this stuff. Of course, it's one you want. [00:19:05] Speaker B: Steve, I'm very lucky and fortunate that dumb things like eating garbage food works because people like to watch me eat garbage food or do stupid things. [00:19:19] Speaker A: I think you're underselling yourself. [00:19:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:23] Speaker A: I also think that you're underselling yourself in the sense that you're also married to somebody with a marketing degree who was attracted to you and your brain and your ability to market and sell your books and be passionate about your stuff. Right. [00:19:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:38] Speaker A: There's a reason the two of you are married, right? I assume. Yeah. And part of it I've seen is both of you have brilliant minds for this stuff, and I think you both undersell it. But to an extent, yeah. So eating garbage on the Internet might do one thing, but you also strategically place your eating garbage with your high quality products. [00:20:00] Speaker B: Well, I mean, also, like, my video game collection is pretty big. [00:20:04] Speaker A: Well, there is that. And that may be why you and Anne got together to begin with. It's like not Netflix and Chill. It's like Sega Saturn and Chill. Right. [00:20:19] Speaker B: She's like, oh, I didn't know they made this. [00:20:23] Speaker A: Yeah. You still have a Sega Saturn? What? [00:20:25] Speaker B: Yes. [00:20:26] Speaker A: But it's really when you got into the Dreamcast games that everything. [00:20:34] Speaker B: Hey, man, I mean, typing in the dead is awesome. [00:20:38] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's the ECW game. [00:20:41] Speaker B: It is, which I thank you very much. [00:20:44] Speaker A: How to play it? [00:20:45] Speaker B: Yeah. It's pain in the control. [00:20:47] Speaker A: Someday I'll be able to come back to your house and try to play it again. [00:20:50] Speaker B: Eventually. Someday. [00:20:52] Speaker A: Someday. When Grandma trusts the vaccine, I can come back. [00:20:55] Speaker B: Never going to happen. [00:20:58] Speaker A: Well, we're about 20 minutes in and we probably should get into the book itself. But I did wanted to bring up a little bit about the differences between approach because we've been reading a lot of big company books, but I wanted to bring up a little bit of the difference in the approach between the marketing, the writing, and what you have to do. If you're promoting one of these Kickstarters, right, you're most creating your own special niche. But then in creating that own special niche, it's also got to be a niche that could potentially be expanded to a larger part of that niche or to a larger overarching audience. Right? Yeah, because let's face it, it's good to have a small audience, but ultimately people would want their stuff read. [00:21:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:39] Speaker A: You don't want it just sitting in a vault. [00:21:41] Speaker B: No, you don't. You want these things to be looked at, enjoyed, passed on to friends and family that would enjoy it as well. So you want to make comics to be able to be shared, but you also want to be able to find comics that you can share as well. [00:22:00] Speaker A: And ultimately too, the pyramid scheme is probably out of line. But if it's 100 of your closest friends backing your Kickstarter and that's your first hundred, but the word spreads among the group of people that are loyal to you and love your stuff, that's fine. But then what do the next hundred look like? [00:22:16] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think that's where it diverges from the joking that it's a pyramid scheme. Because a pyramid scheme, that wouldn't work like that. Right. [00:22:30] Speaker A: You're also not making enough for it to be a pyramid scheme. [00:22:33] Speaker B: No. [00:22:35] Speaker A: It's not like you're making millions here. [00:22:37] Speaker B: No. [00:22:39] Speaker A: The way that you're not the devices. [00:22:41] Speaker B: No. Well, what you're talking about and what you're saying is basically the general good old fashioned word of mouth marketing and getting people to all your friends and family and stuff like that and, or people who have your hardcore core of people finding it and then passing that out and sharing it and getting people to come on and back a project even at whatever level, just to make sure that it gets funded and gets to be able to making sure that it can be created. [00:23:20] Speaker A: Well, before I say anything else about the storytelling and how these things go together, I think we've had a nice setup for this book. And like I said, it's by Joe Glass and Katie Fleming on art. There are a couple of other folks involved too. I should probably give them credit. But for now, let's go ahead and get into this. But I do want to say something before we get in. [00:23:48] Speaker B: All right. [00:23:51] Speaker A: I'm going to read a quote. Glitter Vipers is a bold retort, an indie outcry against heterosexism that hits with intense personal emotion of the best exploitation cinema. And like that, it is raw, real, hits hard and leaves a mark. Quote by Steve Orlando. [00:24:12] Speaker B: Hey, we know that name. [00:24:15] Speaker A: We know that name. So as much as I was criticizing Steve Orlando, Steve Orlando is an advocate. And here he is supporting the know right here on the comixology page. And so just excited. I did not actually know that until I went to grab the comixology page for when I post this later. But I was excited to see these things fit. That's. [00:24:40] Speaker B: That is really good. That is really good. [00:24:43] Speaker A: Yeah. And so we've know. Written by Joe Glass, art by Katie Fleming, colored by Kelly Fitzpatrick, cover by James Gifford, and lettered by Lucas Gatoni and edited by Ted Brandt. So there's our run here and let's get into this book. So we are at the COVID and there's a lot of Rainbow Rain going on. And we've got a prominent character with a baseball bat. And it says Felicia across their chest. Anything else stand out to you here? [00:25:26] Speaker B: Everybody's in a team fighting pose. It looks like you got sort of. [00:25:31] Speaker A: Yeah, I interrupted you as usual. [00:25:39] Speaker B: I don't know what you're getting at. So, I mean, they're standing in a wave of rainbow being rainbow. [00:25:48] Speaker A: Well, you got some that are like, in fighting poses. We've got like, Felicia here. I'm assuming that's Felicia by Felicia because that was in the description of the book. We've got another character who's got brass nuts that say bitch, please. Yeah, but then we got some other folks that are just kind of standing here like, we've got one guy with a button up shirt sort of just posing for the camera. We've got the woman behind bitch, please with her hand up in the air. Got another guy looking really serious. We've got another character in the background and they're just with their hand up in the air catching raindrops. So it's a little different. [00:26:28] Speaker B: Everybody is on their own journey in this. They're all feeling something different, experiencing something different, and they're all going through whatever. I don't know, dude. [00:26:42] Speaker A: The COVID says they're here, they're queer, and they ain't taking shit anymore. But it doesn't say shit. It has, like, the little symbols. [00:26:49] Speaker B: Some people are angry and some people are not. Now that you pointed out, it's hard for me not to notice that. Some people look like they're in a really good family photo and some people look like they're great. Like, you got three people that are like, we're about to go get our fight on. [00:27:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:27:08] Speaker B: And four people that are like, hey, what's up? This is an Instagram moment. Let's take that photo. [00:27:17] Speaker A: I like that, though. I like that. I like that. Not everybody is spoiling to go beat somebody up, right? [00:27:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:27:23] Speaker A: I think it's real to life. I think when circumstances are brought on you. You're not always ready to go punch somebody. I mean, I might be, but you aren't. And I think that's okay. [00:27:34] Speaker B: Got to fight with your words instead of with your fist. [00:27:39] Speaker A: We get into this. There's an interior cover, and it says Glitter Vipers. There's a content warning here. Glitter vipers deals with the church, potentially triggering topics including hate crimes, bigotry, assault, suicide, and violence. So I do want to bring that up as we get into the book because the author brought that up. And so in this case, we're going to be talking about some of these themes on the podcast, too. So you have been warned. All right, so we get the next cover page and just more of the credits here. And thanks to all the Kickstarter backers for the book. And now we start to get into the story, and we're here. And we are in Manchester, England. [00:28:22] Speaker B: Whoa. It's an. [00:28:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. See what I did to you? [00:28:28] Speaker B: International Comic Book Day. [00:28:31] Speaker A: But international comic books, it doesn't seem to matter what country you're in. It still hAppens. No, we have this woman on TV. Right. All I'm saying is that no one but the parents has a right to teach their kids anything, especially in regards to decency. Can I just tell you, I moved recently and I got over here to this new area, and there has been a woman posting signs over everywhere, running for school board. [00:29:04] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:29:05] Speaker A: And this person running for school board just can't handle the curriculum that's being taught to her precious children. So she wants to make sure that the parents have more insight and power into the lesson plans that are going on at school. [00:29:22] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:29:22] Speaker A: And this is the platform she is running on. [00:29:27] Speaker B: Just what you said. [00:29:30] Speaker A: Yes. [00:29:31] Speaker B: That's not a platform. That's just. [00:29:33] Speaker A: Let me tell you. Home school. Yeah, bitch, please. [00:29:37] Speaker B: I'm complaining about what's going on in the school, and I don't like it. So I want to make some changes. There are options. You can home school, you can go and do a. What's the other type of school? It's not a private school, but it's a. [00:29:56] Speaker A: Just call it a private school. Anything. Her platform is the same as this person. [00:30:02] Speaker B: Yeah, right. [00:30:03] Speaker A: Like, I've got to have a direct look into the lesson plans because of the recent things. And of course, she never says what they are because they're just the recent things that have happened in school. So if you think this isn't real, what we're seeing right here, if you think this is just a caricature in a comic book story? No, I'm living this shit daily. [00:30:23] Speaker B: I was reading through the voters pamphlet here, and it's not far off point. And the worst part is not having kids and being like, I would hate to have kids in school. [00:30:40] Speaker A: I would hate to have kids in school. What do I need parents having a battleground over what educators are teaching? Yeah, because of their extensive experience in schooling, to understand how to educate kids. Yeah, and you'd think they'd be over that by now. How did the last year with COVID work out? All they want is for their kids to go back to school, and now they want to go back in the damn school to tell the teachers what they should teaCh. Anyway, it's wild. Rant over, rant over. Okay, so I can't say all of the dialogue in here. [00:31:20] Speaker B: It's a lot of dialogue, but honestly, we see this group of friends out on the town for a night and looks like they're cutting down the street. [00:31:37] Speaker A: Yes. And we got two friends embracing. They're clearly in love with each other. Got another smaller guy here. And we've got miss by Felicia, who's saying, bye, Felicia to Ms. Fletcher, who's on the TV cracking down on these horrible gay people who are walking down the street enjoying their lives, talking about how we need family values to be brought back and how men should marry each other and all the classic, beautiful tropes there on TV. All that. These folks head off down an alley. There are rainbow flags everywhere. It looks like the gay district to me. [00:32:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:17] Speaker A: I've not been to Manchester, but I have been to London, and I have been to Soho, and it was fun. So now we are headed over, and, uh, one of the guys gets hit in the face. And all of a sudden there are a bunch of masked people beating everybody up. [00:32:41] Speaker B: The action just kicks right in. [00:32:44] Speaker A: Yeah, well, and it's just you go from this fun scene, relaxing, kind of chill time, to all of a sudden people are hurting each other. Felicia's. Who was that? So let's see if we can introduce the characters. We've got Albie. So that's his phone watching on the phone. At least that's the characters we know so far. So Albie and Felicia. And we've got the two other men here getting hit. And then we flip a page and one of the guys is down. Be consoled. Albie, standing in the background, and Felicia, without the wig, is sprinting after those guys, trying to break things down. [00:33:43] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:33:44] Speaker A: And Felicia comes back to console Albie. And Albie's underage for the district area. So Albie runs home and Felicia spends some time looking after the other guys. And we find out about Anton is Felicia. So that's one character. And then finding out the other two guys. And the next day, oh, no, Anton's the guy. Sorry, I didn't catch that. Trying to get the character names Right. Greg. [00:34:18] Speaker B: Gotcha. [00:34:19] Speaker A: Anton was the guy that got hurt. I just want to set this up for everybody because there are quite a few characters in this. [00:34:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:25] Speaker A: So Anton's the guy that gets hurt. Felicia is chasing after folks. We'll find out Felicia's name in a few panels and then we get back to the hospital. So we get the next day, Anton's mouth was wired shut. One week later, Albie's wondering if it's safe to come out of his room. We get three weeks later and it looks like we're back at a drag show and people are starting to forget that this guy was smashed there. So that's Felicia's commentary, I believe. [00:35:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:35:16] Speaker A: And now we get one month later and by Felicia outside, but not in drag, is at the police station and talking to a detective and just explaining, hey, y'all should take care of this. And the detective basically blows it off and turns it back on them. We don't have any witnesses. You all were attacked. It's your word against them. Just an excuse not to do police work. And then we rapidly move six weeks later. What do we do in the meantime? While scars are healing, Anton comes out of the hospital seven weeks later. I'm going through this all very quickly because we're getting to a high point. And then I want to discuss it. So seven weeks later, they start going to a support group where people can cope. And you see Albie there with Felicia. And then we get the next phase eight weeks later and we get a flashback on Anton, who's still healing. And then we get a flip to a bathtub, newspapers everywhere. And we read a note and it says, can't take the fear anymore. I love you. Move on. Remember, nowhere is safe. And then you get a black panel and it says, and we broke him. And now I'm going to not cry and I'm going to let you talk about it because I'm so nice. When we get to a heavy point, I always let you talk about it. [00:36:56] Speaker B: Well, thank you, Dan. Yeah, no, this is, I want to say, like, the buildup to this and the pacing and everything else, the book launches into a very fast action and then leads you through all these different things and all these different weeks leading up to this and the grieving process. [00:37:23] Speaker A: Right? [00:37:23] Speaker B: I mean, they're all going through different types of phases each week and. [00:37:34] Speaker A: All. [00:37:34] Speaker B: The different characters that we know right now, and some are moving forward and some are not. And it definitely hits you as a reader that this is definitely something that is happening and it's something that's being told in this book, because this is a reality that needs to be seen, and this is something that we need to. This is a portion of life that needs to be discussed. [00:38:14] Speaker A: I think one major contrast to between the midnighter books that we were reading over the last few weeks in this book is I could go back after the first 13 pages of this book, or ten to 13 pages here, and justify why any of these characters would want to act out against authority or somebody else. It's all here. And it only took, like, ten pages to set up. [00:38:38] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. Everything is right there in the dialogue, in the panels, in the way that it all lays out in every one of these little bits that happens in each one of these. Like one week, two week, a month, three weeks, each one of these things. It has all that information for you to understand, to digest, and to make sense of. [00:39:09] Speaker A: And so now we get to eleven weeks later, and we've been through a funeral now, and where everyone's, not everyone, but there are several people at a support group. And now Joe Glass introduces some new characters, right? And we've got Felicia there, kind of leading the support group with Albie sitting back behind Felicia. And Felicia calls out, Mel and Bry, you girls were just walking home after a gig, made the mistake of holding hands and got a bottle across the head and a broken nose. Introduces Queenie. Every day people give you crap about where you even go to pee. And then we go to Cal. You've been around for years. You've seen it all. And we're around when someone fascist blew up that bar. So we've got an introduction to some more characters. And I don't think we have to have a big backstory for these characters because Joe Glass so clearly told the story of the initial group of characters, right? So we can relate to it. He's given us the emotion of the other characters, and then by simply naming what the backstory is, we should be familiar enough with those backstories through media and. Or we've already felt the emotion of the other characters and so we understand why they'd be frustrated and angry. [00:40:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say when I was reading this, I felt like there was enough about each of these characters to be able to kind of put those pieces together based off of things that I've other stories, and you can empathize with these characters and then also relate them to other things that you of. It's like Legos. It kind of fits together. And not to say that it was making for easy writing for Joe, but it was definitely a way, a mechanism to get a lot of information packed in to that under 20 pages for you to move the story forward. [00:41:29] Speaker A: And I think Joe could use some stereotypes in the storytelling because of the detail given in the first nine pages. [00:41:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:41:38] Speaker A: And so we can have a stereotype represents groups of people that would also be frustrated and angry. [00:41:46] Speaker B: And I hate to say it, but for people that might not be as understanding of a lot of the different culture and what they understand about the community, if they're picking up this book for the first time and their experience is very limited, but they understand what they see on TV as representations of things in those stereotypes, then they're like, oh, okay, that's what I know. [00:42:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:22] Speaker B: I don't know if that's the best way to put it, but I guess it's just you're. [00:42:34] Speaker A: Well, if people are out of tune with this or they're not exposed to it for whatever reason, I think it's a very also quick way to explain why people would be frustrated. Yeah. I could also see somebody reading this who was not exposed to the community and just being like, see, look at all those. So I could see it going the other way too. That's true. I think we'll keep looking at the story and see how it Plays out. [00:43:00] Speaker B: Okay. [00:43:01] Speaker A: But I think we get a little backstory on each of the characters. Felicia's rallying the troops, so to speak. Right? Saying it fills with rage. Queenie speaks up, talks about so much for the sisterhood. We're told women are more kind and accepting, but I can tell you it's the same damn shit every day everywhere. So we get another perspective from another person, right. That wasn't part of the original story. Then Albie chimes in and starts expressing the rage that Albie's felt, clearly staying pent up in his room for the several days. Right? Fuck this. Not okay weeks. Yeah. And then we get it reintroduced to. I want to get their names again. Scrolling back. It was Mel and Bry. And one of the two speaks up. I'm not exactly clear on the name in the panel. And they say, where's our self respect? We sit here and talk, all of us victims for something else, waiting for somebody else to fix it. But we're told to be quiet. We're being too angry. And if we speak out like they expect us to take it. And then we get introduced to one more character. He's talking about being in a motorcycle gang and then know coming out and being beat up and knocked out of the gang. So they're all telling these stories, and one of them speaks up, and it was either Mel or Brian says, I'm not sure. Violence is my thing, right. And we kind of get a reaction. Right. And I think that's fair. Right. They're kind of moving forward. And then Anton's lover speaks up and know. Anton was so full of life. That's why I fell in love with him. What happened to him before coming here didn't matter. He had so much hope. And now they beat it out of him. And they took everything from me, and I want to take everything from them too. I think all of these feelings are real. Right. And raw. [00:45:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:02] Speaker A: And in this case, it's interesting because they decide to fight back. So. Well, then what are we waiting for? I do think this is some storytelling, right. In real life, it's a comic book. Right. And even though these aren't superheroes, it's still a comic book. Right. In real life, you can't go form a gang to go beat people up. [00:45:28] Speaker B: You can't. [00:45:28] Speaker A: Or can you? I was going to say you shouldn't say you can't. But most of the time, I would. [00:45:35] Speaker B: Say vigilanteism is frowned upon, and. Or forming groups of people to do certain things like that is frowned upon. But if anything we've seen in the last two or three years, there's been a lot of. [00:45:53] Speaker A: Who was the guy in Seattle? [00:45:57] Speaker B: What, the superhero? [00:45:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:00] Speaker B: I'm trying to think. Almost said the dirt, the darkness. [00:46:09] Speaker A: Phoenix Jones. [00:46:10] Speaker B: Yes. But he ended up not being so super of a hero because he was selling drugs. [00:46:18] Speaker A: Well, I saw him lose an MMA fight, too. [00:46:21] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. He was indicted for selling drugs, using the superhero, being a superhero, and breaking up fights with his hands and feet to also be around the areas in which people wanted drugs and to sell them. [00:46:43] Speaker A: Oh, fantastic. Yeah, well, there's that. So he was really not a superhero. He's a supervillain. [00:46:53] Speaker B: I think it was a position of opportunity or a situation of opportunity or an opportunity situation. I don't know. [00:47:01] Speaker A: Interesting. Well, yeah. And that's why we frown on vigilanteism. Yes, I guess. [00:47:09] Speaker B: Yes. Anyways, moving on. [00:47:13] Speaker A: Well, moving on. So we'll get into some more vigilantism and get into that. Okay. I didn't know that. January 9, 2020. Jones was arrested for allegedly selling MDMA to an undercover. [00:47:31] Speaker B: Oof. [00:47:32] Speaker A: Okay, well, that's great. Well, wonder what that drug is used for. [00:47:42] Speaker B: Again. Way to research stuff before you bring it up in the podcast. [00:47:46] Speaker A: Well, I was not planning on bringing Phoenix Jones up today, so that was not in the discussion. [00:47:54] Speaker B: Third or fourth time we've had a podcast, which all of a sudden, middle of the podcast, you're like, oh, man, what have I done? [00:48:02] Speaker A: Well, that's what happens when you have a discussion about things. Okay, I'm sorry I didn't catalog all of speeding Jones's career before we came on the show. [00:48:12] Speaker B: I'm sorry. I watched a lot of news with my grandma since she's been. That's when she sees a guy running around a rubber suit getting chased by the police. She wants to know if know. [00:48:23] Speaker A: That makes sensE. Since you write about superheroes, it makes sense that you know all of them. [00:48:27] Speaker B: You know him? No, I don't. My friend Dan, though, he might. [00:48:34] Speaker A: Oh, geez. Okay, well, let's get back to the queerness here. So we're back here, and we're backstage in Felicia's studio, and we are getting some costumes made because that's what's going to happen. That's what Felicia's specialty is. And here we go. We see a Felicia baseball bat appear. And out from the curtain, Felicia says, let's smash them. Right? That's why I hate contractions. There have been pink panthers and Black Panthers and will be the glitter Vipers, honey. And they are ready to go. [00:49:30] Speaker B: They look like they're ready to. So I swear I've seen these people. [00:49:41] Speaker A: And we get a little bit of a flashback. So how many handsome. Excuse me. How many coats are you checking in with me? Maybe. I'm just here to see you, Anton. Well, just how much of me are you trying to see, Mr. Call me Jesus? So we get Jesus and Anton's origin story, how they met the first time. And Jesus soberingly walks back to the group and he says, fleeshas. You coming, honey? You okay? No, but that's why I'm coming. And so getting back to that kind of sobering reality of why they are doing this. Right. It's just awful. Yeah. And I like the balance, right? Because it's kind of cute. Hey, we formed a superhero group. We're all in masks, and we're the glitter Vipers. And then you get pulled back to the reality of why something like this has to even exist. Yeah. [00:50:34] Speaker B: We're doing this because bad things happen in our community. And our friend took his life because of these bad things. [00:50:44] Speaker A: Well. And then we get flashed to a scene. You've got a guy coming out of a bar on leather night pretty clearly, and it's going to take a leak. And these five guys come to beat him up. And they don't seem like they're very smart, but they go to try to beat this guy up and bap, one of them gets hit with Felicia's bat. [00:51:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:14] Speaker A: And they start taking out the guys going to beat the guy up. And we've got a little fight scene and Felicia's team scares them off and then they go away and they identify themselves as protecting the streets. So it's kind of their very first successful win. And they identify themselves to the crowd as the glitter Vipers. And we're out here to make sure all of you queens and queens are safe. Queers and queens. Sorry. Are safe and sound. Have a good night, babies. You're all safe now. So they identify that there's a protection group there. And then they walk around the corner and there's the police. [00:51:57] Speaker B: Of course, they were right there all along, but they were doing nothing for the community. [00:52:03] Speaker A: They were right there all along. But the poor guy about to get. [00:52:06] Speaker B: Beat up, he's on his own. [00:52:09] Speaker A: We'll see how this plays out. So they get confronted and Felicia confronts the police officer back. And the police officer says, you'll need to stop what you're doing. It's just going to make matters worse. And he makes the carlable mistake of telling by Felicia to stay calm. [00:52:30] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. You don't do that. [00:52:33] Speaker A: Which, no, not going to happen. And Felicia, in all their glory, says, we are done staying calm. Almost ready with the bat. I'm ready for a speak to the hand moment here. And speak to the. Speak to the bat. That's the end of that confrontation, right? [00:52:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:52:51] Speaker A: And so Felicia calls them out and says that they're going to protect their own community. [00:52:56] Speaker B: It. [00:52:57] Speaker A: And says to Officer Marcus, what are you going to do about it? In a nice three, four page spread? Know, one of the things I like about this book so far, too. And Marcus says nothing for now and retreats to his car. And so that ends that. I do want to get to the end of that, but I feel like this comic seems to. We're about, just about halfway through and the comic seems to move quickly through parts and slowly through others. But I think that works right, because the art is used to build the drama, and then we can slow it down a little bit, and then we can use pages of art to build the drama again. [00:53:42] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:53:46] Speaker A: I like that. [00:53:47] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it totally works. And like you said, with the way that the panel choices that the artists have chosen and the way that the characters depicted in their different ways to do their actions and stuff like that, it definitely does build that drama. It draws you in because there's a lot going on in every bit of this book so far, exactly where you want the readers to be drawn in. So it makes you, as you're reading it, just dive into it headfirst and move with it. I know when I read this, I was like, oh, man, I'm trucking along through it, and I didn't even, you know, just like, this is. This is really good. I'm. I'm almost halfway through this book, and I didn't even. Didn't even. I. I know. I always look at the page count, and I. When I. When I looked back up, I was like, oh, wow, I'm just jamming. [00:54:59] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think one of the great things, too, is I've read this book, like, three or four times now, and I don't even think about the time when I'm reading it. [00:55:06] Speaker B: Yeah, it's easy to get lost in a good story. [00:55:10] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's super easy to digest. Right. There's no looking up at a pause point, seeing if I have to digest this. Right. [00:55:24] Speaker B: Did I miss something? That's the cool part about a story like this, too. Go back to the Midnighter stuff. With Midnighter, you were wondering if you were missing something. Was this Easter egg thrown? Was this an Easter egg that I didn't understand from a previous Midnighter storyline that was brought into this story or from some other when they kind of felt like it was shoehorned in with the Grayson stuff or when they brought Suicide Squad stuff in. What am I missing from any of these bits? And how do I understand and tie all these things together with something like this? You're purely in the moment with the characters because it's all presented right there. [00:56:17] Speaker A: Well, so now we get a change of scene. Speaking of. And we've got Albie yelling at the. What was her name? From the very first page. [00:56:29] Speaker B: I would call her the old hag. [00:56:31] Speaker A: The old hag. I like it. Looks like I'm only trying to get the name right because the character will reappear in the story. Sorry for spoiling spoilers. [00:56:44] Speaker B: The good thing we'Re on the spoiler first. Dan where Cthulhu calls and the tentacles drag you back to the ocean. [00:56:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Ms. Fletcher. [00:56:53] Speaker B: Ms. Fletcher is a hag of the sea. [00:56:57] Speaker A: There you go. So we get an Albie is yelling at saying, hey, it's wrong to say it's wrong to teach people that gay people don't exist, right? [00:57:10] Speaker B: Gee, you can't tell people that people aren't real. It's a valid point. [00:57:19] Speaker A: No one's gay. Gay people don't exist, so they're just not real. Well, basically, they just go around spreading their agenda everywhere. That's what I try to do, is try to spread an agenda. [00:57:34] Speaker B: I mean, by reading what they say in. [00:57:43] Speaker A: I. [00:57:43] Speaker B: That's what my belief is. If that's all I knew, then that's what I would believe. [00:57:50] Speaker A: Well, Albie is counterprotesting, and Ms. Fletcher uses this to say, see, this is the kind of breakdown in social values we're fighting against. This is the antisocial behavior that's a direct result. And it's like, yeah, it's such a classic bullshit line, right? Hey, I instigate and piss people off, and then I call them antisocial. It's so much of the culture right now, too. Like this debate me culture, right, like, debate me. But then everything you say I'm going to say is, like, antisocial or wrong, right. Without any justification, but debate me. I don't think people understand what debate is. [00:58:25] Speaker B: No, they don't. And then when you do debate them, and then you basically. [00:58:29] Speaker A: Ben Shapiro is who I'd be referring to, right? [00:58:36] Speaker B: Their stuff. And they're like, but you can't do that, because I'm right. I'm like, no, you have an opinion, and that is yours. And your opinion to you is correct. But that doesn't make it right. It just means. [00:58:49] Speaker A: And I'm going to only debate you by using ad hominem attacks against you because I don't know how to actually debate. [00:58:55] Speaker B: Yeah, no, that doesn't work. That's not how actual conversation is held. Yeah, crawling up your own, call you antisocial. [00:59:07] Speaker A: Look at me. I'm amazing. [00:59:08] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's like eating dry toast. [00:59:13] Speaker A: And then you get right back into it. Hey. And so now Felicia mentions, hey, our existence isn't really up for debate. And Ms. Fletcher Says, and no one's debating it. Dress however you want, call yourselves whatever, sleep with whatever consenting adult you actually have. Actually have you. But children need. And then Queenie interrupts and says, there you're talking about. Know, we're about love and life and living authenticity and know we do not live our lives in the bedroom. And that shuts Fletcher up. And I think one of the easy ways to shut down an argument like that is to try to make somebody look at somebody as a person. Right. [00:59:58] Speaker B: Wait, to humanize somebody. [01:00:00] Speaker A: Yes. That's a freaking object. [01:00:03] Speaker B: That's insanity, man. You can't make people people if people don't. [01:00:11] Speaker A: And that's Fletcher's downfall because she acknowledges the existence of people. And I do think both with the art and the writing, they do a really good job here illustrating this, like, the frustrations of youth and then the experience of the two people that have been in the community longer. [01:00:29] Speaker B: Right. [01:00:30] Speaker A: And where Albie's ready to almost walk away, the other two calmly interject and engage. And so now we fast forward to a couple weeks later and, hey, good news. The gang hasn't had to do much because, well, a lot of the attacks have stopped. [01:00:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:00:52] Speaker A: People were stood up to. [01:00:54] Speaker B: That's good. [01:00:55] Speaker A: Shocking. You stand up to things and start. [01:00:57] Speaker B: To go away, make a change. [01:01:00] Speaker A: But they do identify an area where attacks have been happening near the industrial area of town. [01:01:08] Speaker B: It's always where bad things happen. [01:01:10] Speaker A: So they go back and they're going to go out there and investigate. [01:01:16] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:17] Speaker A: All right. So now elsewhere we have this young man walking through the park, and he starts to get attacked again by the people in masks. We've seen them before from the very first start of the book. [01:01:31] Speaker B: Yes. [01:01:32] Speaker A: They throw this guy down. He's like, hey, I did nothing to you. And they don't care. And then they do care all of a sudden because here comes the glitter vipers. [01:01:47] Speaker B: Glitter vipers. [01:01:49] Speaker A: And Jesus yells for Anton, motherfuckers. And they get started. I did notice something. [01:01:57] Speaker B: Oh, go ahead, Greg. No, I was going to say if somebody came at me with a mask like that, with just like these fangs and everything like that, I'd be kind of scared because that's a scary mask. Okay, what are you going to say? [01:02:10] Speaker A: Well, I was just going to say, too, we're moving through this book, and I noticed in the episode eight and nine, the issue eight and nine of midnighter, I said the F word, like more than I've ever said it on this podcast. [01:02:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:02:25] Speaker A: I didn't notice that when we were casting, but I noticed when we listened back. Right. And I was extremely frustrated with the story. Yeah, it's just like the opposite here. It just moves. Right. We can move the story right through. [01:02:39] Speaker B: The story just moves. The only time that you actually say any words are because it's written in the dialogue and you're reading something because it emphasizes the moment and it brings that character to life on the page. What was that word that you used before? Humanize. [01:03:01] Speaker A: Yeah, humanizing. [01:03:02] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. [01:03:03] Speaker A: Well, we get the fight scene. Yes, you get the fight scene here. And speaking of humanizing, the people in the masks keep fighting back no matter what. They don't seem to give up. And finally they start to give up. They're still yelling names, still calling people names. And then one of them starts to leave and Jesus grabs one and says, you attacked us, attacked Anton. And the other person starts to get scared. And they pull the mask off and he's like, you're off me. And he ceases to realizes these are kids. So teenagers presumably. At least that's the way they're drawn, right? Teenage boys. [01:03:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:51] Speaker A: And they're like, oh, they're children. And all of a sudden there's kind of a cris conscience know, they realize the people they've been tracking, so not the people they initially scared away, but the people they've been tracking are kids. And hases comes this moment and says, no, they're talking and they say, albie says, there were definitely older ones among the group that attacked us, I'm sure of it. And says, no, no, there weren't. It was them. A bunch of kids killed Anton just because he was different than them. How the fuck did we fight with that? And we have this moment know people that would presumably should be innocent. Right. They have to be taught to hate like this. [01:04:40] Speaker B: Yeah. They had to be weaponized to take that kind of action. [01:04:50] Speaker A: And let's have a moment here. Right? Like, as somebody who grew up and was taught to hate myself, right, I'm feeling this, right? Yeah, this is weaponized again. I'm glad Twitter didn't exist when I was a teenager because you probably would. [01:05:04] Speaker B: Have said a bunch of stuff because the church told you to say that this is your reality. Probably would have said, that's a guaranteed. [01:05:16] Speaker A: I would have said stuff. [01:05:17] Speaker B: And I'm sure that there are people that have grown up since the invention of social media said things and then come to terms with their life and gone, oh, fuck, I am exactly everything that I was told to not embrace well. [01:05:36] Speaker A: And it's crazy that just we're able to platform. I mean, I guess that's the debate about Facebook right now is we're able to platform children and put them out there in front of the world and have them say things or read this. This is though, too, it's like, Felicia identifies their kids, so what? But they're still hurting people. But Jesus fights back and says, their children, they don't know what they do. I think that's such a poignant moment. And Felicia calls bullshit and argues back, but I think it's worth the debate they're having. Right. [01:06:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:14] Speaker A: Like, to some extent, they don't know what they, right. Like, I had no idea. Right. Like, yeah, I knew that. Couldn't figure out why dating women didn't. [01:06:27] Speaker B: Work. [01:06:30] Speaker A: In every possible. Right. Like, there's just no interest in Dan for, like, then you have these feelings, like, you're constantly told, well, this is wrong. Right. And so how do you even reconcile that? You don't even know yet, right. Yeah, people don't know. That's why this stuff with Superboy and John Kent is such a, right. Like, how could anybody even, like, how could anybody know? First of all, this character has been around, like, what, three years, three, four years in comics, rIght? Yeah. And then it's like, how could somebody say that John Kent even knows John Kent's sexuality yet? It's not like they took a character that's been around 50 years and went, man, we're going to take a character, and this does happen. So I'm not saying it doesn't, but we're going to take a character with a long term history of having straight relationships. Right. And then all of a sudden they're going to have a different relationship. Okay, you can't make that argument, right? This isn't that. And I think that's exactly the visceral reaction of that is representative of this discussion in a lot of ways, too. Right? People have to be taught that. It has to be taught somewhere. You don't just go, oh, well, people can't change their mind, or people can't be different, or people can't. [01:08:01] Speaker B: Or they can't branch out and experience different things because they're curious about whatever. [01:08:10] Speaker A: Even more ridiculous when it's in a fictional story. [01:08:15] Speaker B: True. [01:08:18] Speaker A: So we move on. And the group decides that they want to find out who's sending out gangs of kids to hurt people, which makes sense. So they ultimately decide to, instead of attacking more kids, they decide to go for the root cause, which makes a lot of sense with this group. I mean, that was what they set out to do to begin with, right, to clean up the neighborhood. So let's go after the root cause. So they break into this industrial area, and Albie's got his phone again, trusty Dusty phone. It looks like it's been fixed up so it may be a new phone. And they start taking pictures of what's inside. And Felicia does not want Albie to go inside and be hurt. And they start taking pictures, and we get a snapshot of the inside, and we get what can only be called an evil supervillain. Right? [01:09:10] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. [01:09:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:09:12] Speaker B: It looks like. [01:09:16] Speaker A: Fletcher. Yeah. Bald people. [01:09:19] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:09:20] Speaker A: It is amazing. It is the ultimate supervillain. But here are the kids coming, reporting back to it, and they're like, yeah, they got seen. They got their hoods pulled down and told them to be careful. Vipers. They're paying the kids. [01:09:40] Speaker B: It makes sense, though. It's very realistic in a sense. You see that in real life, but you also see it in movies. [01:09:50] Speaker A: Yep. And they're paying the kids. And what know, there's Miss Fletcher. Well, of course, that's one homosexual down. And you'll get your reward for it. Yay. Okay, great. Lady. I'm referring to the kid with the hoodie and the backpack. That was the satchel bag that was hurt. And then she gets into her monologuing again. It's all been working so well already. Freaks are getting more scared to come out already. They think the streets are safe, and all it took was gamifying the fight back. So she's gamifying it. She's basically paying people like a game to go out and beat people up because she's classy. [01:10:31] Speaker B: Classy? [01:10:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Classy. [01:10:34] Speaker B: Very. [01:10:35] Speaker A: She likes being the snod out of sodomites and cross dressers. [01:10:40] Speaker B: Yeah, that's not. [01:10:43] Speaker A: Yay. This is fun. This part's fun. Okay, well, her whole moral compass is eventually the next generation. Instead of being twisted and accepting, discussing perverted ways were made strictly with the wholesome, traditional standards. We know that we love and we control. And I just want to tackle laugh. Well, that's what it is. Right? That's what groups want. The interesting part is if they can control the specific narrative, then they can control you. Right? It's back to that discussion at the beginning of the book where they're talking, know, not being victims anymore. Right. And while it's interesting that in the right, Joe Glass acts it out as the victims actually physically hitting each other against violence. But I think more of the message don't. You can't be a victim. It's back to that weeks where Albie was hiding in the house. Right? Like, you can't just hide in the house. You have to actively participate in your own liberation. [01:11:52] Speaker B: Right? [01:11:52] Speaker A: If that makes. Don't think I don't think Joe Glass is advocating that people go out and hit people with baseball bats. No, but I think there is an know a cry to ask people to actively participate in their own liberation. Right. [01:12:11] Speaker B: Acknowledging that there's a problem, that these things need to be looked at, and we need to figure out a way to move forward from having these things happen. [01:12:22] Speaker A: Well, and if it wasn't bad enough, here's old Officer Marcus coming in to help out. And as soon as Officer Marcus makes the appearance and monologues a little bit, here come the glitter vipers through the window. And now they actually do launch in, like, superheroes. So now is our pose. What you were thinking of from the first page of the. [01:12:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:12:44] Speaker A: And they start attacking, jumping in. This is fun. I love the art. It. Is it Bree or Mel? I can't remember what the them. [01:12:59] Speaker B: One of them's not into the fighting thing. [01:13:01] Speaker A: The shorter, blue haired one that is into the. It's like. It's like a golden age comic scene. Just kind of like, running through the air, hitting people. Reminds me of, like, the golden age Adam. [01:13:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:16] Speaker A: Not the Silver Age. Not the one that could shrink down, but the guy that was just short, that could fight with Pratt. And these are. It's a classic look, like almost from a golden age book, which I love the art here. And they go to town on these folks, and Felicia gets her, digs in against Officer Marcus. And then Marcus, well, just decides to light everything on fire because he's like, burn it. He might as well commit arson too, while they're along with it. [01:13:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Why? [01:13:54] Speaker A: Um. And the Vipers start ending this, taking people out. People start leaving. And then, okay, now Fletcher's backed into a corner, and she decides to pull a gun. [01:14:03] Speaker B: Oh, man. [01:14:05] Speaker A: That's, of course, what you do. And against Jesus, of course. Right? Because that's what it is. And Jesus in kind of this what we were talking about too. Like this anti victimhood thing, right? Where participating in your own liberation, right? She starts calling him a pest and a freak, and he basically says, your kind never gets their hands dirty. You won't do shit. You'll expect someone else to do it for you. I've seen your kind and you call us freaks, but you can't keep your noses out of our business. Can't help but try to destroy our lives. YOu're all weak and you're all pathetic, and still we fear you. And that's the monologue. And then he finishes up by saying, because despite your weakness, your pathetic, insane agendas, hating anyone you deem not normal. Your hate is infectious. It spreads to anyone you can manipulate, anyone you're looking for a reason to feel and their own twisted thoughts inside it. And it surrounds us. You make it so. Our lives are a debate, a battle. You won't ever give us peace. And then the most innocent of us, and he pauses and he says, do you even know? And do you even care? And I think that's the thing of participating, right? The whole notion that they're creating this sort of agenda without even looking at people as humans. And he even comes to realization after looking back at Anton that she deserves to die. But he's not going to do it because he actually looks at people as humans and he's liberating not just himself from them, but himself from. Right. Like he's not going to bow to the other side and dehumanize. And I will say one of the frustrating things I get into outside of the world of comics is when people on either side start dehumanizing each other. [01:15:58] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:16:00] Speaker A: And you may see it differently, but that frustrates me to an extent. [01:16:04] Speaker B: Yeah, no, no, I understand. [01:16:11] Speaker A: So now Felicia is there with Fletcher, and Albie steps back in and has recorded everything. And there's basically a confession video, and he sent it out to the Internet for everybody to see. [01:16:27] Speaker B: Oh, the Internet. The Internet. [01:16:29] Speaker A: The Internet. Got them. [01:16:31] Speaker B: Got them. [01:16:33] Speaker A: And now they're all being arrested. And I love this, too. You see it all the time, right? It's like, okay, I'm being arrested now. And so now I'm just going to keep calling people disgusting freaks and running society and filthy. And I'm going to continue to blame my bad actions on somebody else. [01:16:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm going to just make myself out. I'm going to just show everybody how. [01:16:57] Speaker A: Terrible I am when it's like this. What about Ism? Right? Well, what about them? They're filthy and their lifestyles are terrible. It justifies me burning down a building and attacking people. Yeah, it's ridiculous. And I think Joe Glassmate with the dialogue and the art here. The art here is great. Right? Katie Fleming does an amazing job with the art, drawing even more contorted. Right. The faces more contorted as the arguments get more ridiculous, even in the video on TV. And I love that. As the argument gets more ridiculous, the person looks more ridiculous, too. I think that's a big, fun piece of the art here. [01:17:46] Speaker B: Definitely, definitely. [01:17:52] Speaker A: So they call in Marcus to meet with him one more time, and the whole gang's there. And they meet with Officer Marcus. And while Officer Marcus doesn't necessarily get in trouble. They're always there watching him tell him to leave. And basically they've won, so to speak. Right. But have they? And they're all happy. They're celebrating. And Jesus announces, hey, I actually have some news. I'm leaving. And they ask him what he's talking about. And he's like, now that we've done this, he's like, I love all of you, but I don't see myself having a place here without Anton. And we get back to the real, sobering reality that this violence that's been inflicted on the community has consequences. Right. It goes beyond one person suicide. Right. It goes back to infecting the entire community and impacting people in real ways. And while we do get a nice splash page at the end saying we're still going to keep this place safe, I like the balance there. We didn't just have a happy ending with the splash page of the Glitter Vipers. Right. There's a real impact on the characters before we end the. [01:19:13] Speaker B: Yeah. Like, there's that reality that Jesus is going to leave, move on, and go to another town to pick up his life. [01:19:32] Speaker A: And we get a couple more pages afterwards. I think it was really classy that Joe put in the book all these resources in the UK and the US for the LGBTQ plus community. So really thought that was a classy piece at the end. So if somebody was reading this book and was struggling, they have places to go for help. Yeah. [01:19:55] Speaker B: No, it's good because you're getting all this information. You're reading this book, and then at the end of it, you're getting all these different resources and stuff like that and know you might know somebody that could use this. And it's just all in this nice package. [01:20:20] Speaker A: So I really loved some. We've got the quote by Steve Orlando on the back of the book, so I guess I should have known that was there. Right, because it was literally on the back of the book I was reading. But I tend to read the book from front to back, so I wasn't necessarily looking there. [01:20:35] Speaker B: You don't start at the back of the book and read to the front? [01:20:38] Speaker A: No, I don't start at the end. I'm not one of those people. Okay, those people. But overall, it's a fascinating story. Right? I shouldn't say fascinating, but I would actually. Fascinating is probably the wrong word. It's a clear, concise, easy to follow story that justifies why people would take violence, but also justifies why violence might be warranted. But I think if you're comparing it to real life, if you're looking for the interior lesson here, they're advocating for people to not just sit back and be victims but advocate, as I was saying earlier, for their own liberation. So I would ask, I shouldn't ask if you were telling the story, right? Because that's not the question I want. But if you were taking a story of advocacy, right. How might you approach that story and why? How would I approach it doesn't have to be for this. [01:21:38] Speaker B: Right. [01:21:39] Speaker A: But you were writing a story that was advocating for something. [01:21:44] Speaker B: I think I would take a look at the different ways that things could be told for those different takes on people's either perception or their experiences, because everyone has a different view on different things. That way there's different characters that can represent that and different voices so that people reading it can have that connection and be able to follow along the story with characters that they align with so that it carries them, the reader, through that story. So trying to make sure that theRe's enough for everyone in all those different things. I think when you're advocating, when you're telling something, a story that has that much importance to you, you want to try to make sure that all those, that's kind of ingrained in all those different characters, but also speaking to different people and getting that information, getting. [01:23:07] Speaker A: A. [01:23:07] Speaker B: Little bit of background so that you can make sure that the stories you're telling and, or those characters are, I want to say, represented well and that there's enough, I don't know, with this. Like we said earlier, there was enough buy in for me as a reader in the first twelve pages that I was hooked and just going with it as it ramped up and it just rolled and you want to make sure that that's there for anyone in any kind of story, that someone can pick it up and just roll with it. I feel that's important. I feel like also, too, to get more into the idea of when you're telling an advocacy story, making sure that you've got all the different bits and pieces that also make sense to whatever it is that you're advocating because there's a lot of different things that go into any of those types of stories, right. So making sure all that information is out there and doing your research on those things so that when you're telling that story, it's as good as you can tell it with the characters and the situation that you've put them in. So if you're telling a story that's advocating for wildlife or whatever. And it makes sense in that area that you're telling it that if it's in the Pacific Northwest and there's bears and other stuff like that, you don't have zebras running around. I don't know. [01:25:09] Speaker A: Yeah, that all makes sense to me. And I think that the depth of the character, too, like depth or breadth. Right. Depending on the character and who they are. But you need enough there to let people identify with the character. And I think that is extremely helpful when building. So, yeah, he's super interesting to me. And I say, but not to argue with you, but we are running out of timE. [01:25:43] Speaker B: This is true. This is true. We've had a very lengthy conversation this week, but all for good reasons, talking about different things and thoroughly enjoying a story that has a lot, I mean, going from everything that we read in midnighter and reading an ultraviolent story that was told over multiple issues with not a lot of backstory as to why there was, I mean, at least for us, not a lot of backstory throwing us into why there was a lot of violence and then finding, running into this and getting just everything that you felt like you were lacking before in a very different book that has all these different aspects and you're getting all the story there and you're running with it and by the end of it, you're like, okay, got this. I got this. Ends on a sad note, ends on a high. [01:26:53] Speaker A: Yep. [01:26:55] Speaker B: I'm reading the back of it here and it's got this quote from Cena Grace and it's a throwback to, I want to say, like several San Diego Comic Cons, I had the pleasure of talking to him for a few minutes. I was totally fanboying and just kind of gushing. I'm a human and when I see creators that I thoroughly enjoy their work. And this was pre like any of the things that he's known for here, but this is purely just like, oh my gosh, I find your art is amazing and I just think you're still delightful person to just be able to share this however many minutes you're going to. Let me just fallen over your portfolio that you have here. But we're just talking about stories and stuff like that. And I think this quote that he has back here totally, it throws me back to that moment we were having. Just talking about stories and just like what you can enjoy from something, no matter what it is and all the different ways that someone tells a story either if their experience, because we were talking pre show about Orlando versus Glass in the storytelling and their scripting techniques and stuff like that. But I feel like this story was thoroughly enjoyable. I felt like there was nothing that I was left wondering. I felt the same way with all of the art. I felt the same way with, like I said, every time you asked how the story was progressing, I was like, these panels are just like, everything is just stacked so nicely and so well, it moves. And it just throws me back to that conversation where it's like if you can pick up a story and thoroughly enjoy it, then you have found a good story, you have found a good comic. It doesn't matter if someone that is the best storyteller in the world has written the story or if it's a twelve year old kid that is writing the story. And I think that's one of the best things about us covering Kickstarter comics and stuff like that, is that you've got the opportunity out there and talking about this kind of thing is you've got people out there creating great stories and you just have to give those stories a chance. You never know what you're going to find. And this is an example of that. I appreciate you bringing this to me, Dan. [01:29:38] Speaker A: Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it, and I will, too, without, when I'm talking about did not. I don't dislike everything Steve Orlando's put out. Right. I like a lot of things Steve Orlando puts out. So I do want to say this is in contrast to specifically the Steve Orlando Midnighter run that we read. [01:30:03] Speaker B: Right. Specific parts of it, not all of. [01:30:08] Speaker A: Mean. That's, that's the storytelling we're, I mean, I could look through. Steve Orlando has written a ton of stuff, and there's a whole bunch of stuff that I like. I mean, we could even go back and compare Steve Orlando's Wonder Woman run to the Wonder Woman run we were reading before. Right. So Steve Orlando's written all sorts of different things. And so there's a lot there. But yeah, to your point. Yeah. I'm not going to back down, though, too. The Midnighter series didn't do it for me in a lot of different ways. Right. And violence being one of them. Right. And unnecessary violence or the story not leading up to the violence or justification for it. And I really thought this did the opposite to kind of bring this all around full circle. Anyway, on that note, I think I'm glad you enjoyed the story. And I enjoyed it as well. And we're going to have to come up with something for next week. And I've been picking the books. So I don't want to put you on the spot or anything, but do you have anything in mind? [01:31:11] Speaker B: Do I have anything in mind? Let me look. And. Might have a book. [01:31:17] Speaker A: You might have a book? [01:31:19] Speaker B: I might have a book. [01:31:22] Speaker A: You just might have a book. [01:31:23] Speaker B: Us one. Oh, jeez. [01:31:27] Speaker A: Not what I was hoping you were going to say. [01:31:29] Speaker B: Karate kid. [01:31:33] Speaker A: If we want to go down that path. [01:31:35] Speaker B: I'm just joking, dude. I'm just joking. [01:31:38] Speaker A: We always bring up karate kid in us one. But I was trying to be inclusive and give you the opportunity to choose once in a while. [01:31:48] Speaker B: I know. I appreciate it. [01:31:50] Speaker A: We could read the who's who volume one. Well, podcast. We just read each page of a character's origin. [01:31:59] Speaker B: I think people would. The one person that we have that listens to this would stop listening. So that would be a bad choice. I think what I can do is I can look, I can see, and. [01:32:10] Speaker A: I can say, okay, well, then we will take that offline. But for now, I think this ends the Glitter Vipers episode of Funny book Forensics. [01:32:26] Speaker B: I don't know. I was waving. [01:32:30] Speaker A: Congratulations. I was going Badaba butter.