Episode Transcript
[00:00:06] Speaker A: Greg, are we taking a break from Wonder Woman?
[00:00:08] Speaker B: We are taking a momentary moment, like, we'll come back.
[00:00:15] Speaker A: Yeah, we always do.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: We always.
[00:00:17] Speaker A: It's not like we're leaving Wonder Woman forever, but, you know, Wonder Woman finished up with the airy stuff, and so it. It felt like a good place. We said we're going to go a little bit further, more through George Prez's first whole storyline. But I feel like we got through the first story arc.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: Let's just say I am with you on that. But I think it's just more or less like you don't want to see someone get saved because you dislike the character.
[00:00:52] Speaker A: Come on. I wouldn't say that.
[00:00:54] Speaker B: I know you didn't say it. You didn't have to. Everyone that's been listening has already heard it.
[00:01:01] Speaker A: It's fine.
Well, we might talk about another character today that I kind of like and kind of dislike.
[00:01:09] Speaker B: Oh, really?
More likes and dislikes all in the same?
[00:01:13] Speaker A: I don't know.
We're going to cover one issue of this. I don't think we're going to go in, but there's more to the story. Right. And so again, when there's more to the story, it's like, I'll probably give a little bit more context in there. But anyway, we're going back.
I'm going to shock all one of our listeners right now.
[00:01:40] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:01:41] Speaker A: We're going all the way back to August cover date of 2015.
[00:01:48] Speaker B: 2015.
[00:01:49] Speaker A: Yes, folks, we're doing a comic book that is less, well, approximately six years old.
[00:01:55] Speaker B: Six years. When you told me the title, I thought we were going back even.
[00:02:00] Speaker A: No, no, we weren't going back to Image comics.
But there were a couple runs of the character. I did enjoy it. So we're going to look at midnighter number one here by not Joe Orlando. Don't get yourself confused.
[00:02:17] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:02:18] Speaker A: But by Steve Orlando and Aco and Fahardo Jr. So there's our team.
I always assumed it's ACO. I've never gone and researched the artist's actual pronunciation. I've always just said ACO. Do you know any different there?
[00:02:35] Speaker B: I do not know any different.
That's a good question.
I wish I had something to go on that was a little more, I don't know, had more information to give you, to feed you on this, But I don't.
[00:02:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, it looks like Aco Drew some. It looks like Hugo Petras, Rochelle Rosenberg, known as AcO.
[00:03:08] Speaker B: Cool.
[00:03:10] Speaker A: And apparently there's something that you would like. I was looking up a little bit of information on the fly here because I did my research on Steve Orlando last night, and of course not the artist, because that's so Dan. And he drew a Nick Fury comic with James Robinson as the writer in 2017.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
[00:03:27] Speaker A: And here's why you'll like this. The title of the article is Artist Aco Sterenco's the Hell out of new Nick Fury comic with James Robinson.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: Nice.
[00:03:40] Speaker A: And I wouldn't say he strengthoed the hell out of this one.
[00:03:44] Speaker B: Mmm.
[00:03:45] Speaker A: I guess I can see a little.
[00:03:48] Speaker B: Bit of it, some, but not all.
[00:03:53] Speaker A: But I like it.
[00:03:56] Speaker B: I was delighted I found the art in the story. I'll just say it was a nice jump from what we've been reading.
So it was definitely like a definite shift.
[00:04:17] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a definite shift from. It's not George Perez.
That's what you're saying. Not George Perez. But it's not bad. No, it's darker, it's grimier, and it probably should be for the way the story is written.
[00:04:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:33] Speaker A: And so we don't have the authority today. We don't have midnighter and Apollo. We have just midnighter.
[00:04:41] Speaker B: Just midnighter.
[00:04:43] Speaker A: And so, well, before I get kicked off of all media, we have gay Batman today.
[00:04:49] Speaker B: What? A gay Batman.
[00:04:52] Speaker A: A gay Batman. Gay, violent Batman.
[00:04:53] Speaker B: A gay violent.
[00:04:55] Speaker A: And, you know, before you call me a hypocritical old white know, I'm gay, too, so I'm going to call him Gay Batman. And if you don't like it, don't listen.
[00:05:03] Speaker B: There you go.
When you said we were going to read this, I remember this being something that, in all honesty, in my younger days, I don't think I would have picked up, mainly because of the.
Oh, I don't know if that's a book I should read, but I'm glad that we have grown so much since.
[00:05:28] Speaker A: When you say younger, do you mean like late 30s?
[00:05:32] Speaker B: No, when the original book series came out, like in the 90s.
[00:05:42] Speaker A: Sure, yeah.
[00:05:43] Speaker B: So when the original, the image books came out and you're like, oh, is this.
You're just sitting there thumbing through books on the Stuff and you're like, oh, this is a little racy, little edgy.
[00:06:03] Speaker A: Yeah. And I said the authority. What I meant was Stormwatch.
[00:06:07] Speaker B: Stormwatch, to be clear, the Weatherman.
[00:06:09] Speaker A: I did have some Stormwatch books, though. I had them, a little bit of wildcat action.
[00:06:16] Speaker B: This is definitely not.
A lot of those books had a lot of being ultraviolent, other stuff like that. But also just between the cladness of the costumes and some of the other things for a person that was on and off living with grandparents and other stuff like that, I don't think I want to have a comic book just hanging out, laying around.
[00:06:41] Speaker A: Well, and these were also in the second volume of Stormwatch. So Midnighter and Apollo appeared. They were creations of Warren Ellis, and it was gay Batman and Superman for all intensive purposes. I mean, Guy dresses up in a dark suit and other guy gets his powers from the sun.
[00:07:10] Speaker B: It's a story of all this time.
[00:07:13] Speaker A: And of course this was the much ballyhood or hated, depending on your perspective for me, often hated new 52.
This was Midnighter's first appearance in the New 52 universe.
A lot of these weren't designed to be long runs. And of course we've got the whole Jim Lee universe piece too. So we're looking at characters from that universe written by a lot of different people. But these are characters that Jim Lee brought with him to DC when he split with image.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: So you're getting all these different things that if you don't have any of those backgrounds in, you're like, oh, well, what's going on?
[00:07:56] Speaker A: But you had some really great writers writing Stormwatch and the authority in some of his books, too. So I mean, you get, let's see.
Well, I know Warren Ellis did it of Keep. Well, anyway, now I'm going to Garthenus. Yeah, I thought Ennis, I'm going to mess up his name. Warren Ellis did it for sure. I thought Keith Giffin did some, but anyway, I'll have to go back and look, there's my lack of good research leading into this podcast where we're on here to do. Obviously, you all know I do research and read sometimes, but really for, I don't know if celebrates the right word, but it's June. Yeah, Keith Giffin did do some. Grant Morrison did some.
That's where I was going. I was trying to confirm before I said it was Grant Morrison, that it was actually Grant Morrison on the authority, but there was the authority. And then of know we had Stormwatch, which was, and even Stormwatch was just a direct sort of like dark version of the Justice League. They worked out of a know they ruled over the earth. It was almost like in some ways Stormwatch. And of course, I know some Stormwatch fans, if they listen, will tear me up on this. But to me it was almost like Stormwatch was like, what if the Justice League went wrong?
I sort of wondered about that.
And by the way, we're celebrating June Pride Month. Yeah, at least I am.
[00:09:39] Speaker B: Well, I've got the hat on that you gave me.
[00:09:43] Speaker A: Oh, no, I'm wearing my underwear hat.
That is what you meant by your underwear hat? I thought you were really wearing underwear.
[00:09:54] Speaker B: As a no man.
[00:09:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:57] Speaker B: So sparkly and pride filled.
[00:10:01] Speaker A: Well, I'm sure the audience really wants to know that if I order enough sexy men's underwear that I get a free hat. And I gave that free hat to.
[00:10:08] Speaker B: Greg and I wear it sometimes when I make videos.
[00:10:13] Speaker A: Rainbow Trucker hat, basically.
[00:10:15] Speaker B: Great.
[00:10:16] Speaker A: Not something I would have worn, but Greg loves it, and so I can't deny it. Yeah.
There was going to be a fight over that, I think, between you and my roommate.
[00:10:27] Speaker B: I know.
[00:10:27] Speaker A: And you would have lost if I hadn't given it to you.
[00:10:30] Speaker B: I would have lost for sure. I'm pretty sure I would have been put into some sort of like a leg lock submission hold or something like that. And I probably would have had to.
[00:10:38] Speaker A: Tap out unless I passed out.
[00:10:39] Speaker B: And then the hat would have just like, I would have woke up and there would be no hat.
[00:10:44] Speaker A: Well, we are off to into. I think it's interesting to.
Why do I pick. So first question is, why do I pick this book? Right. Why pick this book? Because Steve Orlando was nominated for Glad Awards for writing this, uh, for both Midnighter series. So I do like to approach it. One of the other pieces, Too, I think that I get. And there's some controversy here, and I will bring it up as we kind of review the book. But it's interesting because if you kind of look at it in the respect. Well, I'm going to make two points and I'm not going to back off on them. One is that it's interesting because Apollo, to me, was always what somebody would consider a traditional gay man. Right. Like, it's stereotypical, not traditional. Excuse me, but I mean stereotype. Right.
[00:11:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:41] Speaker A: Whereas Midnighter was supposed to be sort of the balance. So I just thought that was interesting and not stereotypical. So when you read this, it's interesting because you don't really get the sense that he's gay until he's with men.
And I kind of enjoyed that, right. When I read it because it was like, oh, so gay people are just normal people except they're gay.
[00:12:07] Speaker B: Whoa, that's a weird concept, man. Normal people. What?
[00:12:10] Speaker A: Right. You should write people as people.
Yeah. Without writing them directly to their sexual preference. Right.
And it kind of also reminded me of, this reminds me of the show. And of course, I draw a blank because we're in the middle of a podcast.
And so Showtime Showtime show is it 6ft under William H. Macy?
[00:12:38] Speaker B: Not 6ft under shameless reminds me of.
[00:12:42] Speaker A: Shameless and it reminds me he reminds me of the Mickey Midnighter reminds me of the Mickey character in shameless a lot too.
I think there's some parallels there, too. So if you're big fans of shameless, I'm a huge fan of shameless. I need to watch the last season because I didn't want to start watching it and then it goes away and then I'm going to run out of time because it leaves Amazon for free on the 30th. And I started rewatching queer as folk because that's what I do in my spare time during Pride Month. But yeah.
Anyway, shameless is a great, I highly recommend it, at least the American version. I can't speak for the UK version, but love the show. And it's just a, I don't know, shameless. It's interesting, and you'll get to see some plot parallels, too. So I don't want to spoil the whole plot of this book, but shameless is about a family on the south side of Chicago, and they just never seem to make it out of poverty.
[00:13:41] Speaker B: Up against the wall, as it were.
[00:13:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And it seems like no matter what they do, they're always stuck in. And so, I mean, at least for me personally, there's a lot of messages in that show that ring true to me in my life.
It's not like I grew up in abject poverty. Like I always had a house and everything, but the notion of moving up classes, right? Like, can you move from the lower middle class up? And they never seemed to be able to. And so it's just interesting. And then the kind of family obligations that come with it, right. In reading this book, too, I think there's a lot of parallels. So I guess what I'm doing is if you like that show, you might like to read these books, or vice versa.
[00:14:25] Speaker B: If you like this book, you might.
[00:14:27] Speaker A: Like go back and watch that show.
[00:14:29] Speaker B: Damn it. Now I'm going to have to read both and watch both.
[00:14:33] Speaker A: Well, I think you would like shameless. I can't speak for the other member of the household that controls the television with you.
[00:14:41] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. No, Grandma would totally dislike it.
[00:14:46] Speaker A: Grandma might like it. I don't know.
Grandma likes all the soap operas.
Yeah, she might like it.
[00:14:53] Speaker B: She probably would.
[00:14:55] Speaker A: So anyway, we're into midnighter number one. We've got this weird cover. It's interesting because there was a lot going on around these times with Dick Grayson and Spiral.
And it's weird that you have sort of the spiral symbols.
Yeah. Anyway, it looks sort of like the spiral symbol behind him on the COVID I thought that was interesting.
[00:15:20] Speaker B: I would say if you knew nothing about midnighter going into this and you saw this cover and you were like, dude, it's like Batman, but he's all bloody. Like, he just totally put somebody 6ft under.
I'm going to totally buy this book.
[00:15:43] Speaker A: I think the other piece about ACO's cover is there's nothing left to interpretation. If you picked this up and then you were like, man, I don't like blood and violence in my comics. Then that's on you.
[00:15:58] Speaker B: Yeah, IT's on you.
[00:16:01] Speaker A: Well, we flip to the first page, and because I'm not a scholar, we'll go all the way to the first page, though there is an advertisement for Bizarro.
Okay. Yeah.
[00:16:13] Speaker B: And then the Altcover, which is this.
[00:16:16] Speaker A: Am the worst comic book ever. Are you unready? So there we go. Yeah. And they all cover is cool, too. So he's fighting lots of what I would call very 90s image comic book villains here.
[00:16:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, yeah, totally.
It is like just a scat of them.
[00:16:36] Speaker A: Just like their butt works threw up all over the COVID and then they were bad.
[00:16:41] Speaker B: And the total splits formation with the power punch to the down and the up.
[00:16:50] Speaker A: I don't know. I just want to say, as a gay man, I just don't know too many men that can actually make that position in real life.
[00:17:04] Speaker B: It's got to be.
[00:17:05] Speaker A: I need to be critical of the COVID here. We wouldn't want to put people in poses that they can't do in real life.
[00:17:11] Speaker B: I mean, I could imagine maybe a little less with the outwardness of the legs.
[00:17:16] Speaker A: That's a lot of leather, though.
[00:17:18] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's tight.
[00:17:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:21] Speaker B: And the things on the shins, they just look like it would hinder movement.
[00:17:29] Speaker A: It seems like it would hinder movement. Well, anyway, we're here and we've made it to the God Garden. I have no idea what that is.
[00:17:37] Speaker B: It's the God Garden.
[00:17:39] Speaker A: I mean, I kind of know what it is, but if you're reading this for the first time, I don't know why you would know what this is. So I feel like we probably need to build some context in the story.
[00:17:51] Speaker B: It would just be, it's a floating.
[00:17:54] Speaker A: Garden tonight, and we're reading this as if we read it for the first time. So we've got a character here with gray hair, sort of looking like I don't know, a cross between the movie version and the comic book version of.
[00:18:20] Speaker B: Okay, kinda. I feel what? You're right. I can feel it. Oh.
[00:18:26] Speaker A: But I know what Durlins are. And Durlins were definitely not in Jim Lee, so we're definitely in DC.
[00:18:34] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:18:35] Speaker A: She has a Durlin Biogenade. Do you know who Durlins are?
[00:18:38] Speaker B: What's a Durlin Dan?
[00:18:39] Speaker A: You don't know what Durlins are?
[00:18:41] Speaker B: No. What's a Durlin Dan?
[00:18:43] Speaker A: Oh, well, Durlins first appeared back in Adventure ComicS.
And the first known Derlin in DC Comics was a character called Chameleon Boy. Who's in the. What group do you think he belongs to?
[00:18:57] Speaker B: Is it.
[00:18:59] Speaker A: No, no, he existed before the Teen Titans.
[00:19:03] Speaker B: Oh.
Would it be the Legion of superheroes?
[00:19:06] Speaker A: It would be the Legion of Superheroes. And then the Durlins were retributed. Retrobuted. Retributed. No, retrobuted. Retro. Booted. Thank you. Or rebooted. I don't know. Anyway, they weren't really rebooted, but their 20th century origin came in the series Invasion, written by Keith Giffin. And Keith Giffin, of course, has ties to this universe as well, who as a writer, former writer on the authority. And so here we are with the Durlins. And the Durlins were basically the way Giffin and Paul Levitts portrayed them in Legion. And then how Giffin later portrayed them in the 20th century. Very violent race. Their planet was destroyed by nuclear weapons. And then anybody who survived through radiation gained the power to shapeshift.
So in this case, and some of the cool things they would do is when they were written into the 20th century, this was never shown in the 30th century or the 31st century, which is ironic. But the Durans could form a spaceship. Like a whole bunch of them could get together and make a spaceship, like a biospaceship. Yeah, it's sort of like Battlestar Galactica, kind of esque. It's kind of cool. Battlestar may have stole a little bit from that, which is fine. I like it. I love it when people steal from people. I'm not saying this is a bad thing. So anyway, a little bit on Derlin's here, and we've got the biogenade. And she says, whoever you are, however the hell you got in here, it ends now or we both die.
And he asks for a door.
And a door appears, and he kicks her in the face or kicks the grenade and then a door. Some doors move around and they have a nice big fight.
And he hits her with something he doesn't know the name of. Maybe I'll call this a neuron nuke. Whatever. And knocks this person out. So we've got this person with, all we can see is that they have glasses and they walk through these teleport through these kind of cold door things. And that's our action sequence. And we have no names of any characters. Is that correct so far?
[00:21:35] Speaker B: Yes. Correct.
[00:21:36] Speaker A: Okay. Just want to be clear. I don't want to jump the gun on the story.
And then we see the woman floating through a door and she's thrown into space. That's not so good.
[00:21:50] Speaker B: No.
[00:21:55] Speaker A: Here we go. She's floating into space. And that's bad?
[00:22:00] Speaker B: Yes, bad.
[00:22:01] Speaker A: You don't do so while floating into space.
[00:22:03] Speaker B: No, space is bad.
[00:22:05] Speaker A: So tell me about this page. Tell me about the transition. So we've had a massive transition, and I'm going to shut up for a minute and let you explain as a storyteller what you would do here.
[00:22:15] Speaker B: Oh, he's going to drop it on me. So you have this massive page of amazing person floating over what appears to be the Earth through a light door and then, boom.
Into what appears to be a nice dinner. Is that what you're talking about?
[00:22:43] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's a really interesting transition. Right? We have a very dark scene.
[00:22:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess at the top of the page. It appears that what we have with that lower portion of the page is broken up by a social media chat box dialogue. I'm not sure. It's like some dialogue going on with two people talking about some stuff, like a person's profile and then some text on the side from a word bubble.
And you can see some stuff inside inset, I guess. I'm assuming that's just what we're reading. That's a little blown up. But it's interesting because you go from that dark page to this.
[00:23:50] Speaker A: Or to.
[00:23:51] Speaker B: That top panel to this nice sit down restaurant dinner.
Looks like there's people having. It's very light in that sense. Right. You got people all around enjoying an evening.
[00:24:13] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's interesting here.
And he's on a dating app. Right?
[00:24:19] Speaker B: Is that what it is? I wasn't sure if it was a dating app or if it was like social media, some sort, because that's the thing. I don't know what all these things look like.
[00:24:30] Speaker A: You don't know what the dating apps look like?
[00:24:32] Speaker B: I don't because I'm not sure.
[00:24:36] Speaker A: Well, I mean, generic enough.
[00:24:39] Speaker B: It could be married for twelve years.
[00:24:41] Speaker A: 13, I guess it's generic enough that it could be social media, but, yeah.
[00:24:46] Speaker B: It looks to me like a Facebook or could have been like an old Instagram or Tumblr because 2016. So it's like, is it Tumblr? Is it Pinterest? I don't know what this is, but. Okay, cool. It's got all the person's likes, dislikes, whatever.
It just looks like somebody popping into somebody's profile and just reading all the stuff that you see on somebody's information on there. More about so and so to me.
[00:25:25] Speaker A: Yeah. And I like the dialogue. Wait, wait. Midnighter doesn't stand for Mitch. So he's not hiding his identity here.
[00:25:35] Speaker B: Yeah, he's just like, no, that's.
[00:25:42] Speaker A: So. He's trying to say he's a superhero. And anyway.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: The honesty that's just in what this person puts out there in their profile is very much, like, just chronically new in town.
Flexibility for justice.
[00:26:06] Speaker A: Most people have headbutted an. Yeah, small things.
Well, his friend, who we don't have a name for yet either, is commenting on that.
It's interesting, too. This is right around the time that DC editorial made a terrible decision in my mind.
[00:26:27] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:26:28] Speaker A: And they did it again later.
[00:26:29] Speaker B: What was that?
[00:26:31] Speaker A: Because they just did it again. Like Bendis did it again.
Well, they decided that everybody should know Superman's identity, and then later they killed that Superman and brought back the actual Superman from the other universe and then let everybody know that Superman's identity, but they killed the other Superman because they'd ruined the story by making his identity out there.
[00:26:57] Speaker B: Well, these are great ideas.
[00:26:59] Speaker A: No, they're know it.
Uh, and he says his job is aggressive anthropology. I guess I don't get the mean. I know I read the series before this, but I don't remember and I don't get the joke.
[00:27:14] Speaker B: He's an anthropologist and he's aggressive about it. Sometimes when you're working in the field of anthropology, you have to crack some heads.
[00:27:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
I think the interesting part here, too. Well, he senses something and says, get down. So I know Midnighter has, like, a chip or a deal in his brain. I'm sure it'll get revealed in a second. That gives him almost like a spidey sense. And that's where we're getting the kind of circles around him. So that's how we can differentiate him from Batman a little bit.
[00:27:48] Speaker B: You mean he's not the.
[00:27:49] Speaker A: He's from a power scent.
[00:27:50] Speaker B: The best detective in the world?
[00:27:53] Speaker A: Well, here's the problem. Well, he might have been at one point but let's turn the page. Well, no, he may have been at one point, but as soon as they brought him into the problem with bringing midnight or Apollo the authority, Stormwatch, everybody into the DC Comics is that if Stormwatch is an analog for the who, who is DC Comics going to choose to be the real Justice League?
[00:28:23] Speaker B: Well, the Justice League, of course, but you could always have the Stormwatch and Stormwatch and kind of have. I know Travis and I have had this discussion. It would just be like having shitty.
[00:28:47] Speaker A: Separate, if they're in separate universes, though, you can have them be awesome, right? Yeah, but the minute they're in the same universe. Yeah. You've got to pick one, so you're not going to pick your back.
It's interesting, too, we're covering this. I feel like they did the same thing, and it'll be interesting to see what they do now. Right. But I felt like they sort of did the same thing with Milestone comics. I felt like those were great stories, but I felt like that's why they didn't catch on. Right. Yeah, because it was like, okay, well, we'll make the black version of the Justice League. Okay, we'll make the new violent version of the Justice League over here.
[00:29:25] Speaker B: Right.
[00:29:26] Speaker A: And so once they're in the same universe, once icon is in the same universe as Superman, once Apollo is in the same universe as Superman.
You have Superman.
[00:29:37] Speaker B: Yeah, in one way.
And this is just from my own perspective, sorry to derail before we even get on the tracks too much, but from my own perspective, when you're creating an IP and it is singular and it's out there and it's standalone, I think that's what makes it great and unique. And then if you've emulated something in order to give your IP enough of that understandability, so if anybody reading goes, oh, this is an analog to this thing that I love, and that makes sense because I understand that just enough that it's still enjoyable and still agreeable in their headspace. Right. And that's why creators create that way. But as soon as that IP gets bought up by whoever to bring into the fold, like you just said, it loses all.
[00:30:55] Speaker A: Or let's hypothetically say you work for both major comic book companies, and then you create an analog, say, of the Justice Society of America and their offspring, and then your comic gets bought by, say, Netflix, and then the show is canceled after the first season because you're an analog of other stuff, but it.
[00:31:26] Speaker B: Gets a spin off, and that spin off is still in production with its.
[00:31:34] Speaker A: Because Mark Miller needs more money.
He didn't get enough the first six times.
[00:31:41] Speaker B: I know.
[00:31:45] Speaker A: And you're aware that Mark Miller wrote my single least favorite story in all of comics, right? Story, you know, not total story. I would.
[00:31:57] Speaker B: Know.
[00:31:57] Speaker A: He wrote Civil War. You're aware of this?
[00:31:59] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:32:01] Speaker A: But then he redeems himself with Kick Ass. At least kick the first one. We're not going to go like the spin off and the new one and all that.
[00:32:11] Speaker B: But I think, again, that's where something like that.
What I'm saying is a story like Kick Ass is wonderful, wonderful, unique in its own right and enjoyable. And it's telling a story that, understandability wise, the origin story is similar enough to three other stories that we know, but you can still appreciate it and enjoy it, right, because of when you.
[00:32:44] Speaker A: Do an indie book about Superman, Wonder Woman and their kids.
Yeah, it's like great, awesome.
But the funny thing is, though, I read the first six issues of the comic and they were not what the TV show was. So I'm interested maybe in going, the.
[00:33:05] Speaker B: TV show did anything.
[00:33:06] Speaker A: It made me more interested in going back and reading more of the comic story arcs to figure out what in the world happened after the first five issues.
[00:33:12] Speaker B: Well, again, we've derailed before we even got on the tracks too mUch. But that's the great thing about having a podcast like this is where we can find things like that.
Read and watch and discuss.
[00:33:29] Speaker A: Well, I think we are going to derail, though, because we're going to flip to the next page and we've got a group of. Who are these people? I have no idea, but they're yelling about the country harboring terrorists and blah, blah, blah.
[00:33:44] Speaker B: And your social justice is nothing because.
[00:33:49] Speaker A: More than treason, because you're harboring terrorist, Madora doesn't recognize the law. And then somebody gets up and says, no freedom in modern Madura, you filthy pig. And they kill the guy and he's dead.
[00:34:04] Speaker B: Okay, yeah, I'm confused because I'm like.
[00:34:06] Speaker A: I thought they were in Oakland.
[00:34:07] Speaker B: I don't know what this all is about.
[00:34:09] Speaker A: I don't know. They just teleported to Oakland. Apparently. Apparently Madora separatists hang out in Oakland. I mean, Oakland, the hotbed of harboring terrorism.
[00:34:22] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I mean, Bay Bridge, that thing is dangerous.
I don't know, man.
[00:34:31] Speaker A: Well, additionally, I don't even know how far I want to get in that. I will hold my additionally comment until I see more of the pages of the book.
[00:34:45] Speaker B: I will say that the way that this kind of like the light effect and everything like that. How it all spins out is pretty cool. And they light up that guy. So I'm imagining they have, like, pulse weapons.
[00:34:57] Speaker A: Sure. Well, let's flip to the next page and find out because we're going to see her fire a pulse weapon in the sky, which, unfortunately, we're not getting any Kirby crackle anymore.
[00:35:07] Speaker B: No, it's straight up.
[00:35:09] Speaker A: We are getting some freaking beautiful art.
[00:35:11] Speaker B: Yeah, it is pretty epic. And there's, like, steak and cares on the floor.
[00:35:18] Speaker A: I like the muted, like, AcPIA kind of tones. Did I get the term right there?
Yeah, it's really cool.
[00:35:29] Speaker B: It has that feeling of when everything's overexposed. That is what it looks like when you're staying too close to fireworks.
And I've done this in real life. All too many times. I've been to fireworks displays where a giant board of fireworks has exploded 25ft away from Anne and myself. And we are likE, oh, we're going to die. We're going to die right now. Because I looked at her and I was like, this is not how it's supposed to be going.
What do we do? And I was like, we duck. But, yeah, no, everything just kind of just turns into, I think it's about.
[00:36:25] Speaker A: To get bad for these folks. Now, my one question is, why didn't Midnighter's spider sense go off? And I know they haven't exposed it in the book, but it's like a combat computer in his brain, technically, so it's not spidey sense.
That's how he can be so smart.
Anyway, so, yeah, she's like, threatening them. We can turn your guts into jello, blah, blah, blah. Okay, so we flip the page. But the important thing I want to draw you to is midnighter is just chilling out. Everybody else is freaking out. His date's freaking out. There are carrots and steaks everywhere. And he's just sitting there back to them, ignoring them, kind of like, yeah, do I got to do this?
[00:37:10] Speaker B: Yeah, because when he's sitting there and it does this pan in on or not a pan in, but that scene, the panel opens on him. You see him sitting there with looks like an overnight bag, and now it's all making sense.
[00:37:29] Speaker A: So you flip the page, and he opens the bag, he pulls his little hood on so he can be Batman. Okay? And then she's yelling, cowards, die unknown. Madora, I guess she's the terrorist, but she was chasing the terrorists. I don't know.
[00:37:47] Speaker B: Most terrorists are freedom fighters. And most freedom fighters are terrorists. I don't know how it all works, but this is a prime example on this.
[00:37:57] Speaker A: So we'll say characters lighting up the restaurant with energy weapons.
[00:38:00] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:38:01] Speaker A: And then all of a sudden, we see a knife through a wrist, which is super attractive. Always feels good. Oh, yeah.
[00:38:09] Speaker B: It's going to hurt.
[00:38:10] Speaker A: Keep talking loud. Targets are easy.
And then we see a lot of violence going on, but it's all muted because of the way the art is. But the way the art is drawn, you know, lots of bad stuff is going down.
[00:38:22] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
I love these cutaways where you got an overlay of a photograph that's an X ray on top of an image of a person who I'm imagining was just, like, broken a minute ago.
[00:38:43] Speaker A: Well, and then we get the next page. Madorans, what's your motto? Adorable threats. Glass jaws. And so now we just got midnighter standing in the middle of the room assessing the situation.
[00:38:56] Speaker B: He's like.
[00:38:57] Speaker A: He calls them the human equivalent of irritable bowel syndrome.
[00:39:01] Speaker B: Not fun.
[00:39:03] Speaker A: I've already fought this fight a million different ways. So he's using his combat computer there, and he lets them know I'm the midnighter. And by the time you realize the sentence is way too long and my eyes have healed, you know, you're not surrounding me. So he was blinded too, it sounds like.
[00:39:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:24] Speaker A: And he's arranging them. He says, so here we go. And he just starts destroying everybody. We got a lot of fight scenes here.
[00:39:33] Speaker B: I will say that piece of dialogue harkens back to it feels like Roshak.
[00:39:40] Speaker A: And the Watchman, who is an analog of.
Well, you got to really dig deep there. Do you remember who he's an analog of?
[00:39:51] Speaker B: Who is he an analog of?
[00:39:55] Speaker A: Well, who is he an analog of? Have you forgotten our previous episode about the Blue Beetle?
[00:40:02] Speaker B: Oh, yes.
[00:40:03] Speaker A: Who is in backup stories for the Blue Beetle.
[00:40:08] Speaker B: Backup stories for the Blue Beetle.
[00:40:10] Speaker A: The question.
[00:40:11] Speaker B: Ah, the question.
[00:40:12] Speaker A: So the question in analog, a combination of the shadow and the.
You just, you follow the analogs and of know because Watchmen has the two Batman analogs. Right. Like, you've got the question, who is like a Batman analog of kind of like the shadow, the mysticism, the COVID of the face. And you've got, of course, the blue Beetle, who's the Blue Beetle is interesting because it's more of the recreation of the Blue Beetle was Ditko making that Spider Man.
[00:40:40] Speaker B: Right.
[00:40:41] Speaker A: But it was interesting. And when you get to Watchmen, because the analog for blue Beetle ends up being. Right. Yeah.
[00:40:51] Speaker B: With this cool.
[00:40:52] Speaker A: Or night Owl ship not the Owl man.
[00:40:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:55] Speaker A: Owlman is court of Owl. First three villain. Yeah. Different, but, yeah.
So, yeah, it's just interesting. But he has all the gadgets. It's like the night owls got all the gadgets in the ship and everything, and then the gritty version is Rorschract.
[00:41:12] Speaker B: So.
[00:41:12] Speaker A: Yeah, you've got a lot of that here. You got a lot. Definitely. I mean, a lot of characteristics from those.
[00:41:20] Speaker B: I like it.
I just felt like when I was reading it, I was, hmm, okay. Tasty tidbits.
Tiz and bits.
[00:41:30] Speaker A: Well, and then the question is Rorschach straight?
[00:41:33] Speaker B: That is a question.
[00:41:35] Speaker A: I haven't read the new series yet, so I don't know.
[00:41:38] Speaker B: I haven't either.
[00:41:39] Speaker A: Are you where Tom King just did a Rorschach? Maxi?
[00:41:43] Speaker B: I had seen some stuff going out there that he is writing something.
It's not something that I was like.
[00:41:51] Speaker A: I got to read this. Yeah, well, it's definitely something I've got to read. I'm just waiting to get the whole story for it to be put together.
[00:41:59] Speaker B: In nice little packages.
[00:42:01] Speaker A: Well, now I have them. I have the issues. I just need to pull them out and read them. Well, I have too many comics anyway.
Too many.
[00:42:09] Speaker B: Too many.
[00:42:12] Speaker A: They decide they're going to liquefy him with their energy weapons. That does not go well for them.
[00:42:18] Speaker B: No.
[00:42:18] Speaker A: The fight scene continues.
[00:42:21] Speaker B: He just destroys them.
[00:42:26] Speaker A: It's kind of a cool, artistic series of how his brain works to think of how to murder people in the most efficient way.
[00:42:32] Speaker B: Yeah. A kick here.
Punch. Is it a punch? Did you punch that person in the neck? Is that a neck punch or what is that? I don't even know.
Using strands of stuff. It's crazy.
[00:42:50] Speaker A: Well, we're to the next page to be stabbing things through people's skulls and breaking necks. Okay.
[00:42:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:57] Speaker A: I mean, the silk is so ninety.
[00:42:59] Speaker B: S. Oh, very, yeah, it had a very, the overall feel. I was like, oh, man. I'm like, what? And it's moving so quick. It's like, yeah, and then you get to the opening credits.
[00:43:18] Speaker A: Yeah, and now we're to the credits. Okay.
And now you get to, hey, I'm just here to eat. And people are begging off and midnight are still taking out people.
And he's basically, I've got this under control.
And they keep trying to murder him and he kills everybody. And Matt, Matt, Matt, who's just there to eat, finds this to be awesome.
So Matt is a big fan of midnighter murdering everyone.
[00:43:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:43:53] Speaker A: Okay. And you're right. Credits. So StevE Orlando, ACO.
ACO with Hugo Petrus on inks, Fahardo Jr. On colors, Fletcher on letters, ACO and Fahardo on the COVID And the Brian Hitch. Oh, that's who that did look. Okay, that makes total sense. On the variant cover. That looked very Hitchian, doesn't it? With all the weird movements and.
[00:44:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:44:19] Speaker A: Dave Wildgaz, assistant editor, got Chris Conroy editing. And Mark Doyle must be the group editor for all of everything. I guess they were the bat book. I don't know.
[00:44:33] Speaker B: Anyway, it must be.
[00:44:35] Speaker A: Well, now we're in.
[00:44:39] Speaker B: It was a great.
[00:44:43] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, that did feel like it was the end, right?
[00:44:45] Speaker B: It did. It felt like completion right there.
[00:44:47] Speaker A: Now he's in Boston at a pool hall.
[00:44:49] Speaker B: How'd he get to Boston?
[00:44:51] Speaker A: I have no idea.
[00:44:52] Speaker B: I'm lost.
[00:44:54] Speaker A: Me, too, because we were just in Oakland.
[00:44:56] Speaker B: Yeah, he's in Boston. Okay, so he's in Boston.
[00:45:00] Speaker A: He was on a date in. Yeah, he murdered everyone. His date is.
And.
Okay, well, now he's in Boston eating looks like fish and chips. So he went to the wrong place. He should have come to.
[00:45:21] Speaker B: I mean, Boston has. I mean, they're on the coast. Could be COD.
[00:45:25] Speaker A: Well, he lets him know deep fried dish is part of my master plan. I'm your true arch enemy. The guy's trying to threaten to kill midnighter. And it's food. He said, foiled again. I have accelerated healing. Okay, so we know a little bit.
Okay, that's good to know.
Then he asks if Apollo is coming out.
And he's like, no, okay.
[00:45:54] Speaker B: No, Apollo.
[00:45:57] Speaker A: Yeah, something about he's drinking to that doesn't sound so good.
And then we've got the bartender says, women, men, the parts don't matter. Ask me, they're all crazy, brother. They don't know what they got when they got it. And Midnighter says, that's some real wisdom. You're some kind of ponytailed Sabant, Tony. Your wits actually been twice as deadly as your fry.
Yeah, I don't know. I feel weird on that scene.
[00:46:31] Speaker B: This whole exchange, the whole, like, why is he in Boston? This whole entire.
To me, if I was watching the movie, this would be runtime or page count.
None of this makes sense to me. Like, what's the build up? Why?
[00:46:48] Speaker A: We got disclosed one piece of information, and I guess we were told that Apollo is not there.
[00:46:53] Speaker B: So two, well, know that Tony's is our genemy. He's trying to kill him with fry oil. That's the most important thing. But outside of. Yeah, but it didn't need to be.
I don't.
[00:47:08] Speaker A: Is we get to them playing pool and he says, this looks fun, and shoots all the pool balls in with his magic computer brain.
And he calls them all dinosaurs. And.
And. Okay. And Tony's defending him. Okay, well, that's cool again. All right.
[00:47:32] Speaker B: I don't understand.
I like it. I just don't understand it.
[00:47:37] Speaker A: Well, now our friend and unnamed guy are on a second date. So if we're not going to name these characters, are we getting close to women in refrigerators territory here?
[00:47:49] Speaker B: Could be.
[00:47:52] Speaker A: Where his date is. Just the sex object for the story purposes.
[00:48:00] Speaker B: Is he going to refrigerator this dude?
[00:48:03] Speaker A: Oh, he's not, I don't think.
[00:48:08] Speaker B: I hope not.
[00:48:09] Speaker A: If I remember correctly, it doesn't go well, them dating.
[00:48:12] Speaker B: Well, I mean, if. If Apollo comes back, then of course it's not going to end well for this dude.
[00:48:20] Speaker A: Apollo is not as much of the murdering type, though.
[00:48:23] Speaker B: Well, no, but if Apollo comes back and things get amended, this dude's out the door.
See you later. Bye bye.
[00:48:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, anyway, we're here and we're in Moscow for a second date. He says, step into the door made of light in Oakland and step out in Moscow. This is like just a Tuesday for you. So he's using the here. Okay, so was he on the station murdering that lady?
[00:48:55] Speaker B: Well, I guess we'll find out.
Maybe.
[00:48:59] Speaker A: Okay. And so we see them returning from Moscow from their date. Okay.
And they're chatting.
Okay. They end up back in Oakland.
[00:49:15] Speaker B: Back in Oakland. His place about it. Right? Yeah.
[00:49:20] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:49:22] Speaker B: Cool. They got some time to kill.
[00:49:25] Speaker A: This is really moving.
[00:49:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:28] Speaker A: Oh, okay. Well, they go home.
[00:49:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
Okay, well, this looks different if we're playing NBA jams. The announcer would say things are heating up.
Sure. He's on fire.
[00:49:42] Speaker A: Definitely.
Okay. Oh, my God. We're showing gay men kissing in a comic book.
[00:49:47] Speaker B: Oh, call the.
[00:49:51] Speaker A: Okay, call the Comic Code authority.
[00:49:54] Speaker B: Greg, it's okay.
If it's Animatorpe. I can't even say anthropomorphic animal people.
[00:50:07] Speaker A: Well, we're cops, so we're here. Okay.
Anyway, they're getting it on. So there we go. And we get a page of them kissing. And that's how sex ends, is kissing. And then we get to next page hours later because obviously this is a G rated book, so we can't go past the kiss.
All right, so it's 10:55 a.m., barely.
[00:50:42] Speaker B: I don't know, hours later, midnight.
[00:50:44] Speaker A: Are sleeping on the floor because he's not used to beds.
[00:50:52] Speaker B: Doesn't like the beds.
[00:50:54] Speaker A: Okay, cool. He's an interesting guy.
[00:51:01] Speaker B: He's midnighter.
[00:51:04] Speaker A: Oh, we found out the other guy's name is Jason now.
[00:51:06] Speaker B: Okay. He's got a name. He's not going to end up.
[00:51:09] Speaker A: He's not. Random sex object number.
You can have a name and end up in a refrigerator.
[00:51:19] Speaker B: Jason.
[00:51:20] Speaker A: Well, I don't know if Jason. I don't remember if he ends up in a refrigerator.
[00:51:24] Speaker B: Okay, we'll find out.
[00:51:26] Speaker A: But it doesn't seem good.
Yeah, well, here we. Okay, so.
[00:51:36] Speaker B: Midnighter, he's a.
[00:51:40] Speaker A: Well. And now they get into some wordplay. Is your actual enhancement cynicism? And he says, no, I'm just well endowed, while he's holding something behind his back, seemingly going after Jason. So I'm not sure what's going on here.
Stabs him in the need.
[00:51:58] Speaker B: We had a great two dates, but I need something from you.
[00:52:02] Speaker A: Yeah, that's kind of awkward, too, is to stab somebody without their consent.
[00:52:08] Speaker B: I know, right?
[00:52:09] Speaker A: It's like stabbing people do to me.
Well, I thought one way. You see something that needs my attention, you can call says.
And then Jason says, look, I saw you save people. The world you live in is insane. I respect what you do. I may be an IT guy blessed with infinite patience, but just so you know, this is the definition of coming on too strong. Yeah, or coming on strong. I would agree that's a little strong after one night to expect somebody to GPS you or find you.
[00:52:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
Now, this is Jason saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, buddy. We had fun and we were eating breakfast. Now, you went too far.
[00:52:58] Speaker A: Inviting you for breakfast does not mean you get to stab me without my consent.
[00:53:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't know if I want the GPS thing.
[00:53:12] Speaker A: And now hE's next page talking about Apollo again. Jeez, he was my first. He's beautiful, blah, blah, blah. Okay, he's my first.
[00:53:22] Speaker B: He's beautiful, blah, blah, blah.
[00:53:24] Speaker A: Well, you know, he says he used to work for a woman called the Gardener. Is that who was in outer space?
[00:53:30] Speaker B: I don't know. We'll find out.
[00:53:31] Speaker A: Maybe the gardener was a delusional maniac with unwavering ability to rationalize collateral loss of life. I never liked her. But she's family. You can't pick your family. Indeed you can.
And it wasn't just that.
It was a fight. Okay, well, anyway. Okay.
[00:53:51] Speaker B: And then everything went blink belief. He's got to go.
[00:53:55] Speaker A: I guess. He stabs his people. And there's the gardener. Okay, so I was right. That's who it was.
She called him to the God Garden. It doesn't look. So good.
[00:54:07] Speaker B: The God garden.
[00:54:08] Speaker A: Apparently the gardener can survive getting put into outer space, so that's pretty powerful.
[00:54:14] Speaker B: She's got powers.
[00:54:17] Speaker A: I'm sure I must have known who this character was from reading old Image comics before, but it's been a long time, probably.
Yeah. So somebody broke the defensive shot and teleported her into space. Okay, well, she says she created the midnighter. Created you. Your life, son, I told you was gone. I lied. It kept an origin file. Everything I erased from you, your past, was not gone. And someone walked out up here with it. So they know all about him. Wait, that is the making of pretty good villain. So person with the fight computer in them now is going to get okay. And we're left on a cliffhanger, of course. I know we're covering issue one.
[00:55:04] Speaker B: After I got done reading this, I was like, oh, I want to read the next. I want to finish this.
I want to keep going.
[00:55:11] Speaker A: You can keep reading. I mean, we could do a second issue if you want.
[00:55:14] Speaker B: We might have to because it is interesting and intriguing enough. If we do that, we're going to.
[00:55:21] Speaker A: End up doing four or five issues. I think it's six issues.
[00:55:24] Speaker B: It's only six issues.
We'll continue with this. We'll finish off that one. Wonder Woman.
[00:55:32] Speaker A: Let's do our six issues here. And then we will do some Wonder Woman.
[00:55:36] Speaker B: Okay. Again, we'll toggle back and forth. We'll toggle back and forth.
And then we'll read some us one.
You didn't say no.
[00:55:48] Speaker A: I didn't say no.
[00:55:49] Speaker B: Yet you didn't say no.
[00:55:51] Speaker A: You've lined us up with several issues, but here we are with midnighter. So we are off and running.
[00:56:01] Speaker B: It's very interesting.
I like what's going on here. I definitely feel like there's a lot of different stuff that has got me wanting to find out more.
As somebody who I know about the other stuff, but I don't know about this story and I want to know about it.
I want to read it.
[00:56:28] Speaker A: We can read more. The comic books don't have to end, so we will do one more of these next week. We'll do at least one more. How about we just do these until we get bored of them?
[00:56:38] Speaker B: Well, there's only six, so we'll probably finish them before we get bored.
[00:56:43] Speaker A: Maybe.
[00:56:45] Speaker B: Oh, Dan, don't say that.
[00:56:47] Speaker A: I have read all of these.
[00:56:50] Speaker B: Are you going to say you're going to get bored before you're going to read number up to four? And then you're like, Greg, you don't want to read anymore.
It's not fun.
She's not saying no. Oh, my God.
[00:57:01] Speaker A: What can I say about this? I will keep going because I did read the whole series the first time and it was intriguing.
[00:57:08] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:57:08] Speaker A: And I will just say I don't like constant artist switches.
[00:57:14] Speaker B: Oh, is that something I'm going to be enjoying?
[00:57:21] Speaker A: Because that is if you click into issue two because I know you have it pulled up. And look at the interior art. I don't think you're going to be enjoying it.
[00:57:31] Speaker B: I'm clicking into it right now.
[00:57:35] Speaker A: I could be wrong.
But in contrast with the first book.
[00:57:43] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
[00:57:45] Speaker A: If I remember reading this, I sort of felt ripped off going from book one to book two on the art.
[00:57:55] Speaker B: Does it continue to change every issue?
[00:57:59] Speaker A: I don't recall.
[00:58:00] Speaker B: Oh, don't tell me that.
[00:58:02] Speaker A: I can find out.
ACO is back for issue three.
You've got another artist for issue four.
[00:58:10] Speaker B: Cool.
[00:58:11] Speaker A: The issue four and issue five artists are the same. And then you've got ACO back in issue six. So ACO does three of the six issues. Okay, so you've got three artists in a six issue series.
[00:58:24] Speaker B: Sweet.
[00:58:26] Speaker A: And I hate it when they do.
[00:58:28] Speaker B: That, but it gives you varietY, man.
[00:58:32] Speaker A: And in issue four, we get an appearance of. And five, no other than Dick Grayson.
[00:58:39] Speaker B: Sweet.
Spoil it for you to bring you.
[00:58:43] Speaker A: Into the worst version of Dick Grayson ever written. But see, I like Tom King, but I love Nightwing.
[00:58:56] Speaker B: But.
[00:58:57] Speaker A: And Grayson to me was just stupid.
[00:59:03] Speaker B: Well, we'll see.
[00:59:07] Speaker A: Well, we're not going to read Grayson.
[00:59:09] Speaker B: Well, we're not going to read Grayson. Yes, we're not.
[00:59:13] Speaker A: No, we're not. I just veto.
[00:59:15] Speaker B: You veto.
[00:59:17] Speaker A: Yeah. So what did you think of the story, though, before we critique the rest? I feel like we're leaving on a downer. What were your high points there?
[00:59:25] Speaker B: High points. I thoroughly enjoyed the story.
[00:59:27] Speaker A: I liked the art.
[00:59:28] Speaker B: I thought that it was a great way to bring back a character from a 90s line into the this, I guess, like six issue run and kind of give you a follow through of where are they now? Or what's happening now with them. Because.
[00:59:59] Speaker A: They did do a series before this one.
[01:00:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Was it 2012?
[01:00:03] Speaker A: And then they did a series before that of Midnighter and Apollo, I believe.
[01:00:09] Speaker B: Okay. Because I know when this stuff came.
[01:00:11] Speaker A: Out, I don't just believe. I read it.
[01:00:14] Speaker B: Okay.
When the stuff came out early on, it was stuff that I had thumb through. And also, too, I was one, a poor college student, but two, just like, it was just not something I just wasn't going to be bringing comic books home and having my grandparents look at me like, one, why did you buy this? And then two, what is this?
[01:00:36] Speaker A: Yeah, well, they did a Midnighter and Apollo series after this one, too. Which spoiler? Oh, there's more on this one.
[01:00:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:00:49] Speaker A: So I don't know if the other one was Midnighter and Apollo or just Midnighter, but there was a Midnighter series. There were two series before this. I know. With Midnighter featured.
And then. Yeah, you had a 2006 to 2008 Wild Storm.
[01:01:03] Speaker B: Okay.
[01:01:04] Speaker A: By Garth Ennis series with Giffin, Keith Giffin as well, and Brian Cave on.
[01:01:11] Speaker B: Did they tie in some of their other storylines from their previous books?
[01:01:16] Speaker A: I mean, they kind of pull.
That's more in that mean. But listen to the lineup on this.
So Garth Ennis, Keith Giffin and Brian K. Vaughn all wrote issues, and Chris Sprouse was one of the lead artists on it. And Carl Story.
[01:01:31] Speaker B: Wow.
[01:01:32] Speaker A: So lots of Legion ties here, too, by the way, but wow, a lot of great artists in there. I haven't read that one in a long time. That was, I think, 2000.
A long time ago.
[01:01:53] Speaker B: 2006.
[01:01:55] Speaker A: Yeah. So, I mean, these characters keep popping up from time to time. So, yeah, there can be a lot of interesting stuff there. And of know the difference is, though, it's interesting to go from Ennis to Giffen. Right. Because I feel like Ennis is going to write really dark and then Giffen's going to make everybody funny.
[01:02:16] Speaker B: Right.
[01:02:17] Speaker A: Or maybe not funny. Giffen can write.
Admittedly, Giffin's written everything. Right. Legion space opera stuff, violence.
[01:02:28] Speaker B: I would say it's going to be a lot more not.
[01:02:32] Speaker A: But Justice Baha. Justice League. Right.
[01:02:35] Speaker B: It's a little more light hearted.
[01:02:39] Speaker A: It'll be dialogue heavy. It'll be dialogue heavy, too. Yeah, it'll be dialogue heavy, which I don't mind. Right.
Give me some story. I did feel like this first issue, while introducing us to the character, didn't do much to introduce us to the character.
[01:02:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:03:01] Speaker A: There's a grand assumption that you know a lot about this character before you picked it up, which to me is hard because you have these short. So this did run twelve issues, not just six. Okay. But when you have these short spurts. Right. Appearance here, appearance here, appearance there.
There is some level setting you need to do in the front page of the book. So we do find out that he has kind of a computer brain kind of deal. We find out he has a relation to the gardener. We know he formally dated Apollo. So I guess there was a lot there but then I feel like some of the other depth you could have built to the character is like seven pages of a fighting.
Yeah, seven or eight giant chunk of.
[01:03:42] Speaker B: Like, I'm imagining the whole entire bar set up when they were in Boston was just to get you acclimated. If you weren't with the fact that there was this Apollo character, that you should know the name in case Apollo comes up some point and that he is not there right now.
[01:04:07] Speaker A: Yes.
So interesting story. And then across the twelve issues, too, we have a lot of crossovers.
[01:04:17] Speaker B: Got you.
[01:04:18] Speaker A: So Grayson shows up, Suicide Squad show up.
[01:04:22] Speaker B: Well, they have to tie, I'm assuming, to tie this book series into the rest of the book series that are there if they're going to, I guess.
[01:04:32] Speaker A: But I could do without the Batman universe coming into the book all the time. Right. Like, we already have Batman. I don't need light to come into the book.
[01:04:46] Speaker B: You don't want any of the Batman universe coming into the Shadow book? I mean, to the midnighter book.
[01:04:53] Speaker A: Yeah. You mean to the Bat. Yeah. Honestly, no. I think it would have been.
[01:04:58] Speaker B: Could have just stood alert to just let the story.
[01:05:02] Speaker A: Yeah, but.
[01:05:05] Speaker B: I don't think that they could do that because there's such a big.
[01:05:08] Speaker A: They could do that. They choose not to.
[01:05:11] Speaker B: Yeah, they could do that, but they don't. They choose not to because they like to have everything tied together to keep those multiline stories going.
[01:05:24] Speaker A: I also realized that they have to sell comic books, and part of selling comic books is cover appeal and character appeal and all of that. So, I mean, I respect that aspect of, I mean, from a character development standpoint, it would have been nice know, see the character develop over time, get some depth before you start having crossovers. Right. And especially, like, if you're looking at sort of like Rorschach being night Owl sidekick, and then you have the Batman, and then Grayson shows up and you have, like. I don't.
[01:06:04] Speaker B: It's. It's too much for Dan, is what I'm getting. Well, it's more than what Dan wanted to see.
[01:06:12] Speaker A: Build me a character and tell me a story if we're going to get, like, okay, so nominated for an award because a gay superhero shows up in a book.
[01:06:27] Speaker B: Right.
[01:06:28] Speaker A: Okay, well, I want, again, not upset with the approach of having a gay person be a person. Right. And that their sexuality is just integrated into their personhood. I don't mind that piece, but let's actually have that superhero featured then, without all of these pieces extra thrown in.
[01:06:57] Speaker B: Got you.
[01:06:57] Speaker A: Yeah.
Let's build the character first, and then maybe none of these folks show up until after issue six or seven. Right.
Maybe established a villain or something.
[01:07:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
There's a complete story arc that happens that makes its whole entire run, and then it encapsulates, and then it leads off with a cliffhanger where this character calls upon them for help or they call upon them for help, something. Or there's an interaction of some sort, but there doesn't need to be the interaction of all those characters throughout the storyline to muddy it up because it's almost like so many cameos and a.
[01:07:51] Speaker A: Best of one at this point. Why do we even root for this guy? Right?
[01:07:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
Because you're like, oh, well.
[01:08:05] Speaker A: If you're.
[01:08:06] Speaker B: Not familiar with the character and all these other people keep showing up, then you're like, oh, well, why do.
[01:08:14] Speaker A: I root for? Might be a better question. Right?
Yeah.
[01:08:20] Speaker B: Anyway, because I like this person. So they're here now.
[01:08:24] Speaker A: A lot of questions left unanswered here.
But first issue exploration, maybe not the best choice for Pride Month, but it's here.
[01:08:38] Speaker B: I think you brought something to the table with a good explanation as to why it was a good choice for the accolades that it got, for the representation that it has, but also for the reasons why you wish that it had a better standing of representation.
[01:08:58] Speaker A: Yes.
[01:08:59] Speaker B: And I think that right there makes so much more sense from your perspective. And as someone who is going along the journey of this book series and having you guide me through this and hearing that, it makes me ponder that question, oh, if they did take those things out, what would it do?
It would make it a lot.
Probably better. It would make it a better story.
You could see a lot of different storytelling happening and maybe more enjoyable for somebody who needs that story.
Yeah, you make some valid points.
[01:09:47] Speaker A: Well, we'll see a little. I shouldn't critique writers that are award winning writers.
[01:09:55] Speaker B: You know what, though?
They've done their job. They've written the story. They've written other stories. And if they can't take the Critique of two friends on a podcast talking one listener with one listener, then, well, I don't know.
It's a cold world out there.
Our opinions are just that. They're just opinions.
[01:10:31] Speaker A: Well, I guess your job, then, is to read the first. How many issues of this do we want to read? It looks like, oh, I'm going to read.
Well, you can read them all if you want to.
[01:10:41] Speaker B: I'm going to talk about them with you.
[01:10:43] Speaker A: The first story arc goes three issues, and then we've got two issues with Dick Grayson. So how far do you want to read in? Want to go for the first three?
[01:10:53] Speaker B: We'll see.
And if all of a sudden to go, I want to go further, then you might have to entertain that.
[01:11:06] Speaker A: I might have to entertain that. Okay. Well, I would say, listeners, as we decide our show layout on the podcast, which is super professional.
[01:11:16] Speaker B: So professional.
This is how we do it.
[01:11:19] Speaker A: We'll go through issue two and three.
So the next couple of weeks we'll do issue two and then issue three and then maybe back to Wonder Woman.
[01:11:27] Speaker B: For a quick minute and then hitting up four, five and making Jan cringe the whole entire time.
[01:11:35] Speaker A: Maybe. Might happen. I'll reread them. That's fine.
I'll reread them just to see if story actually happens.
[01:11:47] Speaker B: If we do, then we'll read something.
[01:11:50] Speaker A: Really good, like karate kid or us one.
[01:11:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Afterwards, depending on how many people write in or message or whatever. Saying what?
[01:12:03] Speaker A: I'll tell you what. You put up a poll. Okay.
[01:12:07] Speaker B: I don't think there's a possibility anymore, but I could try.
[01:12:10] Speaker A: Okay. You can't put up a poll on Twitter.
[01:12:13] Speaker B: Oh, I think you can. Facebook. They took that away.
[01:12:17] Speaker A: Yeah, well, on Twitter. And I want you to put in some options and go ahead and tag the mothership in it. And why don't you give them these options? Are you ready? Are you writing down?
[01:12:32] Speaker B: I am not, because I don't have a pen.
[01:12:34] Speaker A: That's unfortunate.
[01:12:35] Speaker B: Okay. I do. Okay, go.
[01:12:39] Speaker A: Here are your options. Are you ready?
[01:12:40] Speaker B: All right, I'm ready.
[01:12:42] Speaker A: Us one. Us road trucking. Number one.
[01:12:49] Speaker B: Okay.
[01:12:51] Speaker A: Karate kid, number one.
Which one is the Aquaman where he gets his hand chewed off? Is that number four?
[01:13:04] Speaker B: Does he have it in A lobster trap and he chews it off to swim away?
[01:13:08] Speaker A: You've not read it, have you?
[01:13:09] Speaker B: I have not lost this.
[01:13:15] Speaker A: I believe it is.
We'll look it up, but it'll be the Peter David Aquaman where Aquaman's hand is chewed off.
[01:13:25] Speaker B: No, hand, Aquaman. Okay. Yeah.
[01:13:28] Speaker A: No hand, Aquaman. And. Yeah. Let's go those. And then for the heck of it.
[01:13:38] Speaker B: One more for balance.
[01:13:39] Speaker A: Yeah, well, no, it's balance. I think these are all pretty awful.
[01:13:45] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
You like Starlight, issue two?
[01:13:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
How about.
Are you ready for this?
[01:14:00] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:14:02] Speaker A: Superman, number 75.
[01:14:05] Speaker B: Superman.
How could Superman be bad?
[01:14:11] Speaker A: That would be Superman Volume two, number 75.
If you don't know which issue that is, we can't be friends anymore.
[01:14:23] Speaker B: Dan, are you really going to hold me to that type of thing where you're going to be like, we can't be friends if you don't know what Superman, volume two.
[01:14:33] Speaker A: I don't know. Maybe. Because maybe besides the Spider man clone saga, the most infamous issue in all of comics history.
[01:14:51] Speaker B: If I don't know anything about this, you're going to be like, oh, Greg.
[01:14:56] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I will. I'll give you a hint.
[01:15:00] Speaker B: The Death of Superman isn't something that I have like five of in my long box because I thought I was going to make a mint on it.
[01:15:08] Speaker A: Yeah, you had to go look it up because I heard you clicking.
[01:15:11] Speaker B: What are you talking about? No, that was me playing with my fidget spinner because I have ad.
[01:15:18] Speaker A: That's right. I believe.
[01:15:19] Speaker B: And I was using a pen to flick the note.
[01:15:24] Speaker A: So Greg's going to put a poll up there, and this poll may go up there before you listen to the podcast. So. Actually, no, I'll wait. I'll have him release the poll the day we release this podcast. So you'll have to remind me because I will forget.
[01:15:39] Speaker B: Oh, man. I already put the poll up.
[01:15:42] Speaker A: You did not.
[01:15:42] Speaker B: I did.
I'm just joking. That was the sound you heard, Dan.
[01:15:48] Speaker A: The clicking was you putting a Facebook poll.
Put.
[01:15:53] Speaker B: Okay.
[01:15:53] Speaker A: And you're just to get cover pictures for your poll so they can pick.
[01:15:56] Speaker B: You can only put one picture at a time, Dan. Don't you know how Twitter works?
[01:16:00] Speaker A: No, I don't.
[01:16:03] Speaker B: I'm just joking.
[01:16:04] Speaker A: I'll make a.
All I see is the retro Emporium pulling Five videotapes, VCR tapes, out of a VCR at the same time.
[01:16:13] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
What was my fun? That was for VCR day.
[01:16:19] Speaker A: Well, we better wrap this up. We had a long chat at the beginning. I think we got into the story. It's interesting. And again, representation. To each their own, though, right? Yeah, kind of questions. I guess I'll end with this thought. Is just representation enough?
[01:16:38] Speaker B: Is just representation enough, right.
[01:16:41] Speaker A: Is just having representation enough just having somebody out there, or do you need the good storytelling?
Should I say premier storytelling?
Clear, in depth character analysis. Right?
Is that enough? But this seemed like a lot of violence and sex. I think that. Not a lot of character.
[01:17:02] Speaker B: That question is definitely something for listeners to ponder because I want to say that is something that falls on each person, because each person is going to have a different take on know.
[01:17:18] Speaker A: Well, let's end it there. Yeah, I think it's funny. Book forensics, we tore it apart and we're done. So on that note, Greg, thanks.
[01:17:29] Speaker B: Thank you for bringing this.
[01:17:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's all for this episode of Funny book Forensics, brought to you by the spoiler verse where Cthulhu gets killed by midnighter.
[01:17:43] Speaker B: Whoa. Cthulhu is going to kill midnighter. But Midnighter is going to kill Cthulhu because that's what Cthulhu. Wait, I don't.
[01:17:52] Speaker A: How would happen to Cthulhu. And Cthulhu would die.
[01:17:57] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh.
[01:18:00] Speaker A: Super brain computer.
[01:18:02] Speaker B: Whoa.
And on that.
[01:18:06] Speaker A: That's it, folks.
That's.
